Topping from the bottom and "Respect"
Speaker: WiserDom
March 8, 1998

* sassysub smiles...i hope you are well tonight, Sir

<WiserDom> Shall we start

<WiserDom> yes thank you hon

* kander votes yes

* Jatari{J} sits quietly and waits for the discussion.

<WiserDom> will someone from the channel please take the lead here in laying the ground rules

<TheKttN> of course:)

<TheKttN> We always ask that you respect the speaker while he is speaking...keep your greets and hugs to the other channel. We will later be taking questions in QUEUE, a simple ! or ? in channel will add you, fireNdark will open queue for questions after WiserDom has spoken

<WiserDom> soft smile

<WiserDom> I hope all speak typonese

<ProvokeMe> fluently

<TheKttN> now i would like to welcome WiserDom who has kindly agreed to be with us tonight:)

<WiserDom> I see many old friends here

<WiserDom> Thank you TheKttN

<WiserDom> and hello all

<WiserDom> I see we have added one item to the original topic but it fits well "respect"

<WiserDom> let me make a statement here that we can use as the focal point as we dicuss

<WiserDom> Toping from the bottom is always confrontational

<WiserDom> It is a power struggle and loss of control by one party and quite often the loss of the moment

<WiserDom> this is not a lifestyle of Robots

<WiserDom> so discussion is necessary in all relationships

<WiserDom> but that should take place prior to playing or scening as most of you use the term today

<WiserDom> If the "bottom" wishes something then why not discuss it prior

<WiserDom> when during the play or the scene so to speak the bottom pushs in one direction or another where does it become topping vs leting her master know of her desires

<WiserDom> I am using the term her here but this is the same for a he

<WiserDom> fo the sake of discussion let me use her if you dont mind as the bottom and He as the top

<WiserDom> but it is the same as with a Domme soft smile

<WiserDom> where does letting the Dominant know your enjoying and wish more of and trying to take control of the situation

<WiserDom> this happen most often in a play situation

<WiserDom> where both parties dont know eachother

<WiserDom> no relationship has been established

<WiserDom> so the bottom so to speak trys to lead what is happening

<WiserDom> that could be avoided by simple communication

<WiserDom> this lifestyle more than any other NEEDs communciation

<WiserDom> as each of you learn eachother then the topping from the bottem should and will stop

<WiserDom> again prior discussion is a must

<WiserDom> learn your partner

<WiserDom> Ill be pleased to stop and take a question or two here before we go on

<WiserDom> smile

<fireNdark> please remember folks....? and ! if you wish to be recognized

<fireNdark> GA ErotikDom :)

<ErotikDom> I would disagree somewhat with one statement...that when the relationship has become a long one that topping from the bottom will stop...I think it increases actually

<WiserDom> ErotikDom sir, if it gets worse then the Dominant has lost control!!

<ErotikDom> talking about a spotaneous scene here..nothing really planned

* MastrMind nods his head "ErotikDom is correct its the communication that eventually diminishes the topping from the bottom":

<WiserDom> wait please

<WiserDom> The point of constant communication is to eventually get past the need for the topping as you learn eachother and you both are sayin g the same thing I belive!!

<ErotikDom> as one gets to know their partner one can sense things..and if You are like me..I like to satisfy those desires

* ErotikDom nods

<swtjaane> you can loose things long term

* MastrMind nods

<MastrMind> jinx

<fireNdark> GA catnip

<catnip-IP> isn't topping from below essentially a plea , conscious or unconsciuos on the sub/slaves part for more domination?

* psyche whispers,,,,,,no

<WiserDom> catnip that is my next point and if youll allow me Ill get there as soon as we finish the question here!!

* kander smiles

<catnip-IP> Yes Sir

<fireNdark> GA sassy

<sassysub> you state, Sir, that you eventually get past the need for the topping,,,,are you referring to the bottom getting past that need or does the d/s dissolve completely?

<WiserDom> Good Question sassy, I think I need go on and get to the next point here as it is now leading to that!!

<sassysub> okay, Sir

<WiserDom> perhaps if I continue here we can cover this area

<sassysub> if you have a ? or ! we have you in queu already....WiserDom Sir...if you will

<WiserDom> may I please do so and then we will stop again

<WiserDom> two things come eventually from topping from the bottom in a relationship

<WiserDom> either it looses the meaning of D/s and actually becomes vanilla with bdsm play or it becomes a D/s relationship

<WiserDom> as ErotikDom said as he learns his partner that comes to an end and he maintains control

<WiserDom> but if a Dominant looses control in a relationship then it is no longer a true D/s relationship

<WiserDom> remember we have 2 situations here, the relationship and the play only

<WiserDom> most topping from the bottom comes about in the play only

<WiserDom> but there is always subtle topping in a realtionship

<WiserDom> good example may be one that I know happened to a dear friend

<WiserDom> he arrived home and she said shall I bathe you before we go to dinner

<WiserDom> they had never discussed going to dinner

<WiserDom> now he says now and gets no bath he says yes and has been topped

<WiserDom> but that was done in a loveing manner

<WiserDom> so he overlooked it

<WiserDom> yet discussed it later

<WiserDom> so there is always a grey area

<WiserDom> when you allow topping from the bottom in a relationship you have the power struggle

<WiserDom> it is confrontational

<WiserDom> it erodes the control of the dominant

<WiserDom> and it is his responsibility to regain that control if he does not then it becomes quite vanilla

<sassysub> WiserDom, are you ready for ? and ! again, Sir?

<WiserDom> we can break here on this point if all wish then go on somemore

<fireNdark> let's get back to physche

<psyche> as is submission is our gift,, as submissives,,,,listening completely to the submissive is the gift of the Dom

<WiserDom> is that a question or a statement?

<psyche> WiserDom,,,,for me i suppose,,,i interested in your comment however,,,i believe it to be a statement for this submissive

<psyche> isn't the place of the Dom,,,,to communicate and want the submissive to talk freely of his/her feelings,,needs?

<WiserDom> I have a dear friend who has been r/l for over 30 years and married to her master that length of time, she says it is not a gift but an exchange of gifts!!

<WiserDom> psyche yes communication is the key to a D/s relationship!!

<psyche> Sir,,,it was much more of a problem in the relationship with a prior Dom,,,,than in play,,,it became the breaking point

<fireNdark> GA rubia

<rubia> my question/comment goes back to what catnip stated....I have a tendency to top from the bottom...mostly as a test - I cannot respect or submit completely to someone who will not completely control the situation - he should know my needs from the communication beforehand...not during play

<rubia> I guess the question is can't topping from the bottom end a relationship?

<WiserDom> hmmm most times it does rubia, for the relationship was supposedly built on D/s and if he cannot maitain that contol then it will end!!

<WiserDom> one more comment here

<WiserDom> if I may

<WiserDom> A dominant male does not a master make, that take work, constant work on his part as well if he allows it to happen then he is not in control!!

<fireNdark> GA swtjaane

<swtjaane> does not real life bring about vanilla situations and it is not unavoidable?

<WiserDom> Jane real life must be taken into consideration, but that has nothing to do with topping from the bottom and perhaps another day we can discuss that aspect of this lifestyle!!

<swtjaane> thank you for your answer

<fireNdark> ticklslave.......GA

<ticklslav> Sir, i wonder how this applies to D/s relationships that do not carry over in the work-a-day parts of life (unlike Your example of planning dinner as a form of subtle topping). Is a D/s relationship (as You've defined it) possible if it only takes place in the bedroom...or is that just play?

<WiserDom> If your saying they are equals in all places but the bedroom then is it not just bdsm play, it is not a lifestyle is it, but a form of expression in play?!!

<ticklslav> ...and are the effects of topping from the bottom the same in each case?

<WiserDom> ticklslav in play it is very common for topping from the bottom as they dont know eachother as well, but in a relationship you learn eachother WELL!!

<fireNdark> GA ProvokeMe

<ProvokeMe> If this relationship then drifts to vanilla, due to the "topping from the bottom"... isn;t that what both parties want ? by letting it happen? and if so... why is that a problem?

<WiserDom> ProvokeMe it is not a problem if both agree then it becomes bedroom play and if they are happy then its between them

<WiserDom> but lets take the opposite here

<WiserDom> what if one wishes him to take control

<WiserDom> and

<WiserDom> he does not, then it becomes a problem!!

<WiserDom> wait

<WiserDom> there is no correct here, each realationship must function on its own!!

<fireNdark> GA sassy I believe your standing in for someone

<sassysub> yes i am, fNd, pls hold a sec

<sassysub> the following is kander's ?...r/l called

<sassysub> <kander> I wonder about timing...and when a D/s relationship began as vanilla... Do you have an idea about where to draw the line between effective and necessary communication and what is clearly TFTB?

<WiserDom> TFTB????

<sassysub> topping from the bottom, Sir

<WiserDom> ok

<WiserDom> hmmm how to answer give me a sec here

<sassysub> k

<WiserDom> Ok let me say this, I help many couples, I teach this lifestyle to them and have taught 100's in r/l. when a couple go from vanilla to this lifestyle and she is the pushing factor and she constantly tops from the bottom and he only goes along with this to save the marriage so to speak then it is not really D/s and it is simply apeasment and there is constant topping from the bottom!!

<fireNdark> GA MastrMind

<MastrMind> well rubia stated that she tests a Dom I have a fundamental problem with that because it is a lack of trust......we CAN"T be expected to read minds

<MastrMind> I need to know that my subs needs have been stated

<MastrMind> I dont need to be tested i need to be trusted

<MastrMind> this is the problem with topping from the bottom it all boils down to trust and openess

<WiserDom> MasterMind sir, that is where the discussiong comes in to this, if she is not getting what she needs the it must be discussed not topping to get what she needs!!

<WiserDom> I think I am saying what you you are with the addition of constant communication!!

<MastrMind> let me reitterate that i need to know that ALL needs have been stated

<WiserDom> that is the constant discussion part!!

<WiserDom> open communication!!

<WiserDom> any more questions before I continue?

* MastrMind nods

<fireNdark> GA enchan

<enchan> my questio n and comment were similar to what MastrMind said... just that it seemed in some cases to be more of lack of communication that caused the topping from the bottom

<enchan> also needs change and communication should be constant people grow and change... also Wiser you friend might have taken charge of the situation by simply stating she could bath him then while he relaxed she should prepare dinner

<WiserDom> enchan you and MastrMind have hit the nail on the head, if there is to be a relationship then communication is the main front. If she does not commuicate then she is at fault and he for letting it happen!!

<enchan> that is what i thought

<fireNdark> GA Erotik

<ErotikDom> there is nothing wrong with vanilla *but* I believe if one lets the relationship drift into vanilla for a long time that the top will become frustrated and the relationship itself will drift apart...both becoming unhappy with the differing desires..again communication is essential.*but*..thetop has to top at sometime..a line in the sand so to speak...no sense being unhappy

<WiserDom> soft smile Yes ErotikDom you are correct and you have hit the nail on the head there again is the commucation thing!!

<fireNdark> GA sassysub

<sassysub> i'm going back to what catnip asked earlier, Sir...isn't it sometimes a cry for more dominance, more control when a bottom tries to top on a consistant basis?

<sassysub> i agree and understand that communication is necessary...but sometimes it isn't obvious to the bottom what she/he is doing

<WiserDom> hmmmm

<sassysub> let me clarify also, Sir...

<WiserDom> give me a sec here to type

<WiserDom> ok please do

<sassysub> i'm not talking just play or scening...i'm talking those that live 24/7 also

<WiserDom> ok sassysub let me put it this way

<sassysub> :)

<WiserDom> when you have a stronger submissive one and a weaker dominant one the relationship usually dies

<WiserDom> yes

<sassysub> yes Sir

<WiserDom> she is crying out for him to take charge

<WiserDom> but

<WiserDom> she also need to communicate that to him prior not during

<WiserDom> discuss this so he understands what is happening

<sassysub> i agree...however she might not realize what she is doing

<sassysub> we do things in life that, when we look back on it later we think....dadgum, i NEEDED to talk to him but i didn't understand why

<WiserDom> yes i see that but, sooner or later one of the two will and then they must discuss it or it will die!!!

<sassysub> i have yet to see any couple that discuss everything all the time....perhaps i'm too green, i dunno

<sassysub> thank-you for commenting, Sir

<fireNdark> GA catnip

<catnip-IP> thank you i would like to comment on what Mastrmind said and the topic in genneral it will take a sec to type please forgive me

<sexelady> WiserDom goodevening

<WiserDom> hi hon

<WiserDom> waiting catnip

<catnip-IP> Pushing boundries : MasterMind said that he needed to be trusted not tested. i dont think tftb has to do with negotiated boundries and needs. every one needs to test the limits , we all thouch the spot with the "wet paint sign" to establish that it is really wet. even with the best of communication a sub/slave , i feel needs to test her Master's commitment to the rules that he has layed down to make sure he back them up. it is typical of humans . you can talk to us all you want but you have to prove it to us occasionally . just like with a kid. you can tell them all day long "if you...., i will"

<WiserDom> ok

<WiserDom> hang on

<catnip-IP> and sooner or later the kid will eventually do whatever has been forbidden to make sure the parent really ment it. the sam with D/s the problem comes in when the sub/slave test and the Dom doesnt immediatly respond

<WiserDom> may I respond catnip?

<catnip-IP> Yes Sir WiserDom please do Sir :)

<WiserDom> we all test wet paint, that is somewhat human nature <more>

<WiserDom> but we are talking contant topping from the bottom here not seeing if her master will maintain control <more>

<WiserDom> when the bottom constantly pushes to see if she is loved then he must also reassure her that he does during dicussion and find ways to show her that. but <more>

<WiserDom> contatan pushing from the bottom is quite annoying to many dominants and wears on the relationship <more>

<WiserDom> again we come down to communication!!!!

<WiserDom> sorry about the spelling

* sassysub smiles...typonese

<fireNdark> GA Chaos sir

<Chaosmstr> Just a comment on the "a dominant male does not a master make".. have had people attempt to call me Master.. and if they ask why when I correct them I usually pop off with "How can I be that Master of another when I have yet to Master myself?" I never claim to be more than a man who knows he doesn't want to submit.

<Chaosmstr> that's all I wanted to say.. :>

<WiserDom> comment here if I may

<WiserDom> on Chosmstr's comment

<fireNdark> of course :)

<Chaosmstr> hmm?

<WiserDom> I agree Sire soft smile!!

<WiserDom> next

<fireNdark> GA wyld-imp

<wyld_imp> in reference to communication ... does that mean one should follow a "script" like a screenplay the first time they scene in r/l?

<WiserDom> wlyld imp may I take a moment and answer that

<wyld_imp> yes Sir :)

<fireNdark> QUE will be stopping after Kree

<WiserDom> imp I did not mean a script in any manner, I meant to discuss anything and everthing as two people should do, and if <more>

<WiserDom> you wished some thing in particular then say it so he may or may not arrange it!!

<fireNdark> GA Kree

<Kree> just a comment concerning sassy mentioning that the submissive doesnt know what she is doing when topping/needing more.. when she finds herself constantly asking or pressing, obviously there is a mismatch of needs and it should be a signal to one or both to stp and talk. I feel the submissve DOES know what she is doing, but doesnt know how to express the need to discuss.

<Kree> end

* sassysub nods..i can see that

<WiserDom> Kree may I add a comment

<kander> me too

<Kree> of course

<WiserDom> I have seen you around for sometime and have always seen you as a concise person, yes that is the answer as you stated it The need for communication or the beginning of the end!!

<Kree> well thank you.. smiles

<WiserDom> Ok let us see what we have said here tonight

<WiserDom> 1 we see lots of topping from the bottom in causual play

<WiserDom> 2 topping from the bottom in a relationship indicates the lack of communication

<WiserDom> remember my opening statement

<WiserDom> Topping from the bottom is always confrontational

<WiserDom> it is a power struggle

<WiserDom> yes some times it can be fun but when constant it is harmful to the relationship

<WiserDom> so in closing let me say, to make any relationship work requires communication but a D/s one DEMAND constant communication to make it work

<WiserDom> for got s there

<wyld_imp> thank You so very much for the discussion tonight, WiserDom, Sir :)

<WiserDom> you know I teach this lifestyle and I use 4 words

<WiserDom> Love

<WiserDom> Honor

<WiserDom> Trust

<WiserDom> Respect

<WiserDom> let me add a 5th

<WiserDom> Communication

<WiserDom> thank you imp

<t`Master> thank you WiserDom... was very interresting....

<WiserDom> and thank you all for your patience with me

<WiserDom> and my typonese

* fireNdark laughs

<sassysub> you did wonderful Sir, thank-you :)

<kander> thanks Mike

<pashyn> Sorry I missed it.

<MsSin{As}> i will say i enjoyed the talk very much

<WiserDom> Hi karen

* tatianya will have to go to the site and look at it this week.

<WiserDom> hope I did well enough for you all

<catnip-IP> Thank you very much for your time this eve WiserDom

* Jatari{J} wonders if the discussion would be posted on the #submission webpage

<sassysub> WiserDom, may we have the url for you website, pls

<^itsme> Thank you WiserDom :)

* wyld_imp curtsies and scoots out of channel.

<fireNdark> if not tomorrow, by Tuesday Jatari :)

* WiserDom http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Palms/4961

<Jatari{J}> thank you FND

<Kree> Wiser, sorry I missed the first of this. the part Isaw was very informative. thanks for sharing

<WiserDom> go to the class room

<WiserDom> my pleasure Kree

<fireNdark> recess is a fun read too

<Jatari{J}> I think you might have covered this but I have a kinda quick question

<pashyn> I'm also sorry I missed the discussion, but will look for it on the web page.

<pashyn> <smile>

<Kree> heh heh pashyn we will deal with you later.. ve haf our vays

<pashyn> Kree, is that a promise, Sir??

<Jatari{J}> How would someone who is new to bdsm know if the relationship is just vanilla w/ bdsm or an actual D/s relationship?

<Kree> of course pash

* pashyn smiles at Kree

<sassysub> we're gonna go to open discussion if anyone would like to comment or ask questions....pls feel free to do so

<fireNdark> cuz tati has a way with "GatorBabe"

<catnip-IP> isnt it true that how D/s and s/M is defined varies from couple to coupel? and how Topping from below is defined depends on who is doing the defining?

<Kree> Jatari what does it need a label for if it feels right?

<catnip-IP> it could be said that all prenegotiated limits and boundries are a form of tftb

<kander> it could, and is said, cat

<Jatari{J}> Kree; I just was wondering cause ppl like me never really know if they are doing things right

<MastrMind> WiserDom may I message you

* sassysub smiles....can we get back to the topic pls

<sassysub> we have some valid concerns, comments and such

<sassysub> <catnip-IP> isnt it true that how D/s and s/M is defined varies fo4r couple to coupel? and hgow Topping from below is defined depends on who is doing the defining?

<catnip-IP> for example the slave who greeted her Master and the door with "would you like me to bath you befor we go out to dinner" Master: you will bathe me befor you cook dinner

<sassysub> <catnip-IP> it could be said that all prenegotiated limits and boundries are a form of tftb

<Kree> Jatari there is no real wrong or right.. it is what is right for the 2 partners. the tendency of people to judge each other's relationships and submissions just needs to be ignored

<sassysub> wait

<catnip-IP> i agree Kree Sir. it depends on your personal feelings of right and wrong as a couple

<sassysub> the tendency of ppl to judge each other's relationships and submissions needs to be ignored...you are speaking of other's relationships, not you and your SO

<Kree> of course sassy.. people in a relationship do NOT owe an explanation of their relationship to others

<sassysub> i had to read it a couple times...i gotcha

<sassysub> and i agree

<Kree> heh heh I had a submissive that had a way of putting my feet back onthe ground by telling me to f*ck off at times... some were appalled at that, but she was RIGHT when she said it.. and I found it humorous

<sassysub> mind if i ask where your feet were, Sir?

<catnip-IP> actually i think we need a D/s dating service. one that pairs Doms, based on their ability to Top with subs based on their need to be dominated

<fireNdark> LOL

<Kree> they were in the air at those times because my head was in my ass

* Jatari{J} thanks everyone for the help.

* sassysub grins...i'm going somewhere w/that ?

<pashyn> Everyone's realtio nship is their own. Unique, and no

one else' business to judge.

<catnip-IP> LOLLOL KreeSir

<sassysub> LOLOL!

<sassysub> soooooo....you as the dom got a little high on who you were?

<Jatari{J}> but what about you judging yourself

<pashyn> Dating service not needed if subs and Doms just take the time to get to know each other for awhile before the collar goes on.

* sassysub sees when tftb is good

<^ponygrl^> Amen pashyn!

* tatianya hands a jar of mayo to Kree..for the next emergency.

<Kree> no sassy. I rarely ever do that. it isnt my way, but I WOULD get ideas at times that were kinda in need of a reality check

<Jatari{J}> or how you think your Dom/sub is judging you

<catnip-IP> Jatari if i may, i think there is a very long growth process in D/s , reading , talking to others, learning who you are and what you need, want , and what you have to offer.

<sassysub> everyone needs a reality check at times

<pashyn> I agree, sassy.

<fireNdark> bingo nip!

* tatianya 's reality check bounced

<catnip-IP> you have to learn these things so you can become your own yard stick to judge yourself by

<pashyn> Humor travels far in all relationships. You can't get too serious about anything..not serious 24/7.

<sassysub> just because you are a top doesn't mean you are perfect....as we all know...although IRC can make a person seem perfect, in reality they are human too

<Kree> catnip. I agee, but I would say it a little differently....it is a question of each partner being secure in who and what they are and each partner offering the feedback to the other to confirm that

<pashyn> .

<catnip-IP> very well said Kree Sir, but that takes time and knowledge

<sassysub> relationships take time

<catnip-IP> we are all essentiall insecure with who we are,

<Kree> exactly catnip. that isnt a place for disposable collars. smiles

* Jatari{J} nods in agreement

<pashyn> I'm pretty secure with who I am.

<tatianya> ditto

<Kree> Too many people rush into things and never find the serenity of being confirmed

<catnip-IP> "know thy self.... Socratese" even then they were having trouble 'finding' themselves

<pashyn> It gets me into trouble sometimes, but if the Dom can't handle it, he can take a hike.

<pashyn> I don't think subs should be "bratty", I don't mean that. I'm very respectful.

<catnip-IP> Kree Sir , "disposable collars" what an excellent choice of words. tooo many go fromone collar or sub to the next without respecting the depth of commitment a true collar takes. and i think that is where a lot of topping from the bottom comes in

<Kree> Yes catnip

<fireNdark> velcro

<sassysub> lol

<Jaeden> By some wanting to be dommed, but "only this way?"

<catnip-IP> hell it took me five years to figure out that o was topping from below and another couple to figure out what to do about it. live grow and learn

<sassysub> nip, you didn't realize what you were doing?

<Kree> Jaeden,,, in this world there is someone out there for everyone..... if someone chooses to settle, they have doomed the relationship from the beginning.. the time is better spent finding the other ide of each person's coin instead of forcing a fit which can not work

<pashyn> Some Doms don't realize the deep committment the sub makes to them. I mean really realize. Then when it ends..the sub is devastated.

<catnip-IP> Jaeden no a sub/slaves wishes should always be considered and they need to find a D/s partner that they are compatible with. there are many facets of D/s and not every body is into the same thing

<sassysub> that's true in vanilla and d/s, Kree

<Kree> yes sassy.....desperation and cum dont make a sound relationship

<catnip-IP> sassy no i did not realize it i had just begun in D/s and was hungering for somthing more . not only did i not know i was doing it, i did not know what i wanted. i simply did not know enough about D/s S/m to know what the options were

<pashyn> I think most of us did that when we were new, catnip. I did. You get wiser as time goes by.

<Kree> catnip tat is quite common.. people findthis, feel it and want instant total immersion

<Kree> THEN they learn that isnt the way

<catnip-IP> pashyn that is the subs fault for not picking a Master worthy of herself. i am a slave and very proud to be so . i am NOT a door mat. my Master may own me mind body heart and soul but he always respects me

<catnip-IP> Kree Sir i did not even know what there was to be immersed in LOL i started in D/s shortly after i started having sex. hell i had not even figured out how to have the big "O" yet ;-)

<pashyn> catnip, when I was new to this, I made a bad choice. I was new and vulnerable. I know better now.

<Kree> hehheh catnip... I assume you have corrected that LOL

<Jatari{J}> can anyone ever know all the options that are available?

<Kree> Jatari if anyoine claims to know...... run

<sassysub> lol...i like that advice

<pashyn> Jatari, just keep learing..keep experiencing.

* Jatari{J} giggles

<catnip-IP> pashyn i apologize. i did not mean it to sound like i was attaking you personally. i got cought up in what i was typing without think .... and i have been down that road too. spent three years mistaking abuse for D/s

<catnip-IP> lol Kree

<pashyn> catnip...no offense taken. This is an emotional discussion, and we are an emotional lot. <smile>

<pashyn> Kree, Sir. I agree with just about all you have said...just in case I forgot to tell you. <smile>

<Kree> thank you pash...

<Jatari{J}> I was also wondering about switching....

<pashyn> <love it when he calls me pash> lol..ok, I know..back to the discussion. <smile>

<Jatari{J}> how can you stop yourself from feeling like you want to switch that is

<Kree> why would you want to stop Jatari?

<pashyn> Jatari, why do you want to stop yourself?

<Kree> if your relationship aloows it then try it

<Kree> heh heh pash come sit in my lap and type my thoughts please LOL

<Jatari{J}> but I feel like it interferes with the relationship at times

<Kree> Jatari. negotiate

<Kree> speak your needs

<sassysub> brb

* fireNdark is saying her g'nites now....."g'nite"

<catnip-IP> ALOT of couples switch. Master/Mistress leaves nstructions that sub will be in charge to night

<Kree> mmmm as Wiser said.. communicate

<Jatari{J}> but I don't want to disrespect my Master

<pashyn> bye fire

<catnip-IP> night fire its been fun :)

<Jatari{J}> he is one who is not the type to switch

<fireNdark> thanks for coming gang!

<tatianya> night fire

<Jaeden> I might, as long as you respect my limits

<Kree> Jatari you do not have to switch with HIM!

<catnip-IP> it is a personal choice, i have played the dom role, but it was just the mechanics for me , my soul is sub

<Jatari{J}> Kree; what do you mean exactly

<pashyn> I have to be strong in R/L. My life here is submissive. I want to fall into the arms of the man who will protect me, desire me, Dom me and adore me.

* tatianya ain't leaving..i have ops!!!! LOL

<pashyn> ROFL tati

<Kree> Jatari. speak to him.. tell him of your need to be dominant, but that you do not wish to harm the relationship and seek permission to find a submissive ot a bottom to allow you to try it

<sassysub> i can take them away, hon :)

<tatianya> oh sassy..don't please??

<sassysub> lol

* tatianya subs beautifully to miss sassy

<sassysub> but you wouldn't to Suthrnldy, tati...tsk tsk tsk

* sassysub grins

<Jatari{J}> well, he kinda has given permission

<tatianya> LOL

<sassysub> lol

<Jatari{J}> but I think he wants to be able to share

<Kree> Jatari when you can erase the "kinda" then proceed

<Jatari{J}> but it doesn't seem that easy

<Kree> heh heh IF we build walls around permissions, it isnt easy

<Jatari{J}> I guess I just get worried that I won't know where the line is drawn and that I would accidently switch with my Master

<Kree> IF he allows that then he is giving permission by default

<Kree> for ME, if I allowed that and you tried it, Iwould rush you right back into your place in a heartbeat

* Jatari{J} looks over at Jaeden.

<catnip-IP> but Kree Sir if you allowed it to begin with?

<Jaeden> Yes m'dear?

<Kree> I would allow it for a partner to do wih someone else.. not with me

<catnip-IP> oh ok i misunderstood Sir :)

<Jatari{J}> Jaeden; Master, what do you suggest in the mean time?

<Jaeden> You should have your pet, I think

<Kree> I have heard many submissives comment thattey would lose the ability to submit if they saw their dominant in a submissive role... I dont now if that is true, but I DO know that I could never be submissive. hell I told the IRS to kiss my ass .. LOL

<Jatari{J}> I would have to agree Kree

* pashyn is very comfortable in her submissiveness.

* catnip-IP kneels down and worships Kree properly, "the irs " i am impressed!

<Jatari{J}> the IRS should kiss your ass *giggle*

<tatianya> goodnight my friends.

* Jaeden runs his hand under Jatarri's chin

<Kree> so IF you have that need, you need to take it outside your relationship IF it is approved for you to do so

<sassysub> good evening SirMagic :)

<SirMagic> Sassy...

<^ponygrl^> I have to say this, and it is just my opinion. I think if you move into a poly relationship you're sorta begging for trouble. I dont know of more than a very few that really really work well.

* sassysub smiles

<catnip-IP> i have my Tops request a switch a different times, which i coplied with. for me , i loose som e of the "aww" that i had, that "fear respect" combo that sets your heart aflutter. i think that is lost after the roles swithc

<catnip-IP> coplied=complied

<sassysub> why is that, nip...do you not believe that someone can have both top and bottom in their heart?

<sassysub> and be very effective in both roles?

<Jatari{J}> Kree; do agree that it would change my opinion of my Master to see him as a submissive in any way. That is why I wonder how to supress my feelings

<catnip-IP> yes sassy i do , and i think there are a lot of couples that do both very well. the full fill each other. i am a sub to the core of my being. i know that now. it is for me personnally that it is lost by my Topping

<sassysub> i agree w/Kree in the respect that he would allow his sub to top another, not him

<sassysub> i wouldn't want to top my top, ya know?

<catnip-IP> exactly sassy !

<Kree> Jatari. suppressing tht desire might be damaging. that is why I say express the desire and seek permission. I think you are wanting to act as a top rather than begin a new relationship arent you?

<catnip-IP> i got to get home. i have school in the morn. thank you all for the info

<Jatari{J}> bye catnip. Thanks for the help

<WiserDom> can I comment catnip

<sassysub> thansk for coming, kittytreat**

<catnip-IP> you are welcome Jatari

<catnip-IP> of course WiserDom Sir

<WiserDom> to some, the ones who play the bdsm games <more>

<WiserDom> switching is fun, but to me I cant begin to see how in a D/s relationship it can ever work!

<Jatari{J}> Kree; I have desires to be a sub/slave more than being a top, but I find myself wanting to top at times. Getting into a new relationship or additional one seems so complex

<WiserDom> soft smile

<Kree> Wiser I agree......

* kander agrees too

<kander> at least for us it hasn't

<WiserDom> but that is my opinion only

<catnip-IP> WiserDom , i agree with you Sir on this point. but i think for some it works. D/s is defined in the eyes of the player. for some it is weekend kink , for others a path of spirituality

* Jatari{J} sits next to Jaeden and wonders if he is going to comment.

<WiserDom> no cat nip

<WiserDom> not at all

<catnip-IP> how so WiserDom Sir?

<WiserDom> D/s is a lifestyle and bdsm is games that may or may not be played in that lifestyle

<Jaeden> Jatarri: It may be complex, but is it only because you make it so?

<WiserDom> do you follow

<catnip-IP> i think as well that D/s is a lifestyle choice , but not all would agree with that definition Sir

<WiserDom> I was formally trained to teach this lifestyle 22 years ago

<catnip-IP> WiserDom Yes Sir i understand what you are saying. and i think there is a lot more to it than most people understand or even care about.

<Jatari{J}> Jaeden: how could it be anything BUT complex?

<WiserDom> yes cat there is believe me

<WiserDom> there were several couples here tonight I teach in r/l

<Jaeden> 1)You think less of yourself than you really are. 2) You chicken out

<Jatari{J}> WiserDom; Sir, how can ppl find ppl like you to teach them?

<Jatari{J}> Jaeden: You have only seen me chicken out with one person

<catnip-IP> thay get caught up in the Bdsm play and never attend to a true path of D/s. but is it not their right to difine their relationships as they see fit? it is like religion. everone thinking that there is one true path, and theirs is the only one leading to heavan

<Jatari{J}> Jaeden: and I am more interested in that person because of the fact that I know you like her and you would be happy to be with her as well as me

<WiserDom> I agree

<WiserDom> I only defined it, did not say that which is correct as there is no correct

<catnip-IP> i have recently learned that there is much more to D/s than a little whip play. i am training with Icepanthr, who follows a path of D/s that i believe to be true. i did not even know what it was i was looking for . just searching for somthing more than bdsm play :)

<WiserDom> been r/l for over 33 years and have learned that there is no correct way

<Kree> ^5 Wiser

<catnip-IP> :)

<WiserDom> yes cat D/s is wonderful and as I said with or with out the play of bdsm

<catnip-IP> i apologize but i have to go , the computor lab on campus is closing. and i have to go . thank you every one for your time and knowledge this eve

<WiserDom> niers cat

* Jatari{J} curtsies to catnip and thanks her again

* catnip-IP rises from her spot on the floor and curtseys low to

WiserDom than to Kree

<WiserDom> niters catnip

<Kree> Jatari.. just a comment... I question whether it would be wise for you to enter into a situation of topping someone and involving your relationship partner , at least in the beginning....

<sassysub> bye kittytreat***

* catnip-IP returns Jatari's curtsies with a grin. any time :)

<sassysub> thanks a lot for coming and participating, hon

* Jaeden is back!

* catnip-IP doese a flying takcle hug of sassy slurps her nose and runs

* sassysub laughs

<catnip-IP> thank you sassy for having me

* sassysub will ALWAYS take da nip

<Kree> Wiser what are your thoughts of involving both in her desire to top?

<Jatari{J}> Kree; I agree. but with this one person that my Master suggested, he appeared interested as well.

<Jatari{J}> But we both know that at the present it would be near to impossible to involve him because she has a bf right now

<Jatari{J}> and because of her b/f is one reason that I keep "chickening out"

<Jaeden> Her b/f says that he doesn't mind, but actions are not translating that way

* Jatari{J} looks over at Jaeden. "That is why I get cold feet around her."

<Jaeden> Don't worry about him, she is interested and if there truly is a problem she will tell you

<Kree> what does SHEwant?

<Jatari{J}> Kree; She never says

<Jatari{J}> also, I don't know if she is a sub at heart

<Kree> even with a direct question?

<Kree> there is a difference between sub and bottom

* Jatari{J} is too scared to be direct

* Jatari{J} is too new to this to know the difference I guess

<sassysub> woops

<sassysub> well, we aren't lagged

<shantyRW}> hi all

<shantyRW}> was not wanting to interrupt discussion is all

<sassysub> they went private it guess, shanty

<shantyRW}> oh

<shantyRW}> thanks sassy, how are you tonight?

<sassysub> i'm well, thanks hon :) how are you?

<sassysub> s'ok Jatarri

<shantyRW}> super great thanks :)

<sassysub> :)

<shantyRW}> do you think they will come back to continue discussion?

<shantyRW}> or am I too late?

<sassysub> i doubt it, the discussion is pretty much over

<shantyRW}> ok, well I am not sure when the regular discussion happens, do you have a time schedule?

<Jatarri> shanty: which discussion?

<shantyRW}> or certain days?

<sassysub> yes shanty, Sunday nights at 9est

<shantyRW}> the one on the Topic Jatarri

<shantyRW}> ok thanks sassy

<Jatarri> oh...okay

<shantyRW}> I have been popping in here and most times tis empty :(

<sassysub> we dont' have a discussion booked EVERY sunday but you can find the info on our website

<sassysub> www.submission.net or you can always mssg me and ask

<shantyRW}> oh? may I

<shantyRW}> thanks, you're quick heheh

<shantyRW}> thank you very much :)

<shantyRW}> i am very new in D/s so want to learn

<pashyn> Goodnight all.

<shantyRW}> nite pashyn

<sassysub> g'nite pashyn**

<WiserDom> sassy Ill say niters now

* sassysub smiles...you are always welcome shanty

<shantyRW}> :)

<WiserDom> last question in msg is done now

<pashyn> Goodnight WiserDom, Sir <curtsy>

<sassysub> thank-you very much for your time, WiserDom

<WiserDom> thanks for having me and I hope you feel it went well

<shantyRW}> nite WiserDom

<WiserDom> nite pashyn

<WiserDom> nit shanty

<^itsme> nite nite WiserDome

<sassysub> i truly appreciate you and yes Sir, i think it was wonderful :)

<WiserDom> nite that is

<^itsme> oops WiserDom

<shantyRW}> hehehe

<shantyRW}> i will look forward to next Sunday then... :)

* Jatarri curtsies to WiserDom. Thank you for the info.

<shantyRW}> sweet dreams to one and all, good nite :)

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