"Humiliation" and BDSM or "Why is it "Humiliation" if i *LIKE* it?"
Speakers: BoundLady and ABondager
February 15, 1998

*** Topic for #submission_discuss: "Humiliation" and BDSM: Speaker BoundLady
*** Topic for #submission_discuss set by TheKttN on Sunday, February 15, 1998 5:37:59 PM

TheKttN: Mention humiliation to many submissives, and Dominants too, and they may cringe at the very idea. But is humiliation inherent in all D/s relationships? From the requirement for a lowered gaze, to kneeling, to elaborate humiliation scenes, do D/s partners work to achieve, maintain and extend submission through acts and attitudes that "humble" the submissive? What can all participants learn about themselves and their partners through humiliation; what are the benefits and dangers?

BoundLady: Remember: if you want to make a comment or have a question, at the end...please type it like that.

TheKttN: I would like to welcome BoundLady as she shares very intimate details of her life to help us all gain a better understanding of "Humiliation and BDSM"

BoundLady: Some of you probably know me from the mailing lists I subscribe to, or from discussion rooms on AOL. My name is Marianne, aka BoundLady, and I have been in a relationship with my Master, ABondager, for more then 2 1/2 years now. We are 24/7, live together, and are both very active in the Washington DC scene. We are both contributors to the Black Rose.

BoundLady: I would like to remind everyone that everything I say is my opinion only , and are things that I have experienced for myself. Many of you might disagree with my opinions, but I am not here to offend anyone, I am here to give you all my point of view and maybe make you think about mine just a little bit. :)

BoundLady: I use the generic "you", so I am not addressing anyone in general. I brought my Master along, who has never done IRC (so be patient), but I think getting questions answered by both of us might help in getting the full picture.

BoundLady: I am here to talk about humiliation. When I use the term humiliation I mean one thing: Safe, Sane, Consensual Humiliation Play. I am not talking about denigrating someone to the point where their self respect gets hurt, I am talking about a part of our lifestyle, where someone gets humbled, put in their place, in a SSC manner.

BoundLady: Now, you might ask, what makes me the speaker here tonight, the "expert" on humiliation? Well, I am not an expert, but humiliation is "our thing". To me it is one of the most important aspects of a BDSM relationship, one of the most important tools a Dominant has, much more important then the whip could ever be. And I'm on a crusade to make people see that humiliation is SSC play, that it is fun, that it is not there to make someone feel bad about themselves.

BoundLady: I think you can very easily have a Top/bottom relationship without any humiliation, but when it comes to D/s it will be there, just because of the fact that one person is dominant, the other person is submissive .. one is in a position of power over the other, one has a "higher" position. I am humbling myself by being submissive to him, and only to him. I know I am not "less" then he is, but I go there because it is what turns us both on.

BoundLady: This is why I feel that we all are into humiliation to a certain extent ... some just a little, some of us a lot. For example: If your best vanilla friend, who knows what you are into, would witness an OTK spanking, would she think "How humiliating, how can she do that?" Or if she could observe you kneeling in front of him, or see you kissing his feet, would that look humiliating to her? It most likely would, but it feels natural to you because you probably do it a lot, and it does not feel humiliating to you because you are used to it.

BoundLady: So yes, we all play with humiliation, we all humble ourselves for our Masters. And, I do feel that humiliation is the essence of D/s play. Boundaries of humiliation are the ones that are stretched the most, with many participants not even realizing that what they are doing is a humiliation scene.

BoundLady: So why does humiliation have such a bad name among participants in this lifestyle? Is it because they look at the word humiliation with vanilla eyes? Why not look at the word beating with the same jaded look? A beating is a good thing in a BDSM relationship, it is a bad thing in a vanilla relationship.

{K}trace: excellent point

BoundLady: Humiliation is bad from a vanilla standpoint, but it is, at least in my opinion......an integral part of a BDSM relationship, as long as it is done as Safe, Sane, Consensual Humiliation PLAY!!!!

BoundLady: Humiliation is not about making someone feel bad about themselves, it is a tool to humble the submissive, to make her do things for the Dominant that she would not do for anyone else, to show her submission. If it is used to make her feel bad then it is abuse. Even humiliation for punishment can not be abusive humiliation, just like a whipping for punishment can not be abusive.

BoundLady: Humiliation comes in many forms. Being called names, like slut, whore, little girl is humiliation. Being put over someone's knee and spanked is humiliation. Being tied to a table with your butt up in the air is humiliation. Being watched going to the bathroom or made going to the bathroom is humiliation. And they all are a huge turn on for me.

BoundLady: So how come some scenes feel like humiliation and others don't, even though they could be considered hu miliation? I think it is related to the frequency it is done. Kneeling, OTK spankings, kissing his feet .. these things don't make me feel humiliated, humbled, even though in my head I know that's exactly what it is. But we do it all the time .. it doesn't feel humiliating anymore ... it still puts me into subspace though.

BoundLady: Other things that are meant to make me feel humiliated he doesn't do very often .. I fetch my little squeaky toy once in a blue moon, he doesn't make me crawl around and pick up magnets with my tits every day, and he doesn't stick a speculum up my butt to examine my insides on a daily basis. So when he does it I can feel the humiliation very clearly. And I go into a very submissive space when I feel the humiliation so clearly.

BoundLady: Some people say "There is nothing that could make me feel humiliated in front of my Master." I happen to think that they are talking about embarrassment when they say that. I do not get embarrassed in front of my Master, to me embarrassment is a negative feeling. But I do feel humiliated, humbled, put in my place when he does those things to me, and they are good feelings.

BoundLady: One question always pops up. Why is it humiliation if I like it? I think it is only humiliation if you like it. If something is done that you don't like and that you can not deal with then it is not humiliation, it is abuse. Just like a spanking is not a spanking when you can not deal with it, it is then abuse.

BoundLady: If someone, even my Master, were to tell me that I'm a fat pig, I would not feel humiliated in the SSC way that we use humiliation, I would feel insulted. If my Master calls me his slut or his whore I just go into subspace. Master has his own theory why that is, I don't want to steal his theories here <G>.

fssw-fran: Darn, I would love to get my Master to call me a Fat Pig at times :-)

BoundLady: Humiliation puts me into subspace like nothing else. Doing things for my Master that I would not do for anyone else is an awesome feeling ... impossible to describe. It is that "I would do anything for him" feeling, that "he truly owns me" feeling ... being truly his and under his control. When he softly whispers in my ear "Only a real nasty girl would get that wet from a whipping" I'm just gone, it's over, I'm his.

BoundLady: One important thing to remember when doing humiliation play is that you cannot play with heavy humiliation with a casual partner. Too much is at stake here. Peoples emotional health is at stake. Before getting into scenes like that a lot of communication is necessary, getting to know everything about a partner. A safeword has to be in place.

BoundLady: You can ruin a good relationship by not recognizing triggers.

BoundLady: You can have talked and discussed for hours ... triggers can sneak up on you, they come out of the subconscious and they can ruin it all if not acted upon properly. Something that might seem like a very simple thing to me, like being called his slut, can be a trigger for someone else that ends the scene or maybe even the relationship immediately

BoundLady: Another important aspect is aftercare. Hugging, cuddling, talking -- the knowledge that he respects her as a partner. Humiliation is not there to take someone down and leave her there. It is a tool to take someone down and build them back up, even taller then they were before. She has to be sure that he knows who she really is, and that he knows what she is giving him with her submission.

fireNdark: I'd like to turn this over to the lovely BoundLady now.....

BoundLady: This is about it. There were a few things missing, like this one important point that I would like to add on. Humiliation is not about making someone feel bad about themselves, it is a tool to humble the submissive, to make her do things for the Dominant that she would not do for anyone else, to show her submission. If it is used to make her feel bad then it is abuse. Even humiliation for punishment can not be abusive humiliation, ju

BoundLady: To me that is extremely important, and maybe the reason why humiliation is so misunderstood in large parts of the community. And now I would like to go to ? and !. :)

sassysub: GA Morrak

Morrak: hmmm.... a lot of good points you have brought up... but is it really a major part...? because some subs/slaves down view most things as humiliation... they dont see humiliation as the way you described it... they see doing things for their Master, not as humiliating, but as a need... perhaps my thinking is vanilla... hmmm...

BoundLady: It is a need for me also, and it is also humiliation IMO. Just because it doesn't feel like it that doesn't change the fact that someone looking at it with vanilla eyes would see the humiliation inherent in the scene. That's what I mean when I say that we do it and most of the time don't even know that we are doing it

mena--: whats humilation to you might not be for others....feels like your trying to say it is that no matter what and your right anything else is wrong other than that

fireNdark: QUE: fssw-fran andi {W'} {K}trace

fireNdark: GA fran :)

fssw-fran: Ok back to my question/comment. If I don't like what he says or can't deal with it, I don't believe this abuse. I find new places in myself by experimenting. Yes, sometimes it may feel bad, but isn't that part of trial and error learning and communicating?

BoundLady: Yes it is, and Master told me to use another word then "bad" to express what I mean there .. maybe I should have listened? When I say feels bad I mean going places that you can not go emotionally,

BoundLady: like for me it would be tel ling me I'm a fat pig for example. I can't go there, I have a few pounds more then I should have and I guess it would not put me in a good space, it would push bad triggers, emotional triggers that would ruin our scene

fireNdark: GA andi {W}

andi{W`}: i also enjoy humiliation, altho i am very new to it. i have found that like many the word slut, slave, even cunt turn me on... but for a strange reason, calling me "whore" will make me see red. Any thoughts on this?

BoundLady: I guess that being called whore is your trigger, and unless you want to work it out with him I feel that it should be respected as something you currntly can not do. That's why talking about these things is so important, who knows what happened in your past that makes you feel bad

BoundLady: when that term is used. There are things for me that get me so very upset that I can not even talk about them here, those are things that only my Master knows

sassysub: QUE: {K}trace claudia{A} MatureDom

fireNdark: GA {K} trace

{K}trace: i thought many of your points were excellent and i agree with the idea that we incorporate humiliation all the time. i thought that was an excellent point. i understand why it makes us feel more submissive but you also mentioned finding it erotic do you know why you find it erotic? is it the humiliation in and of itself or the sexual context or what? I think you're doing great btw :)

BoundLady: I think because it is something I would never ever do for anyone but him. We have gone places together that were absolute limits for me only 2 short years ago. To me trust is

BoundLady: absolutely the most important thing and in a relationship, and to be honest, I find it extremely sexy and erotic that I can trust Thomas with everything, that I don't have to feel bad, no matter where he puts me. I know he will pull me back out.

{K}trace: thanks :)

sassysub: QUE: claudia{A} MatureDom MaccDom Chaosmstr

fireNdark: GA claudia {A} :)

claudia{A: I found that while I enjoyed being called slut/whore .. bitch made me tense. In discussion with my Master, he made the comment that the name didn't define our relationship, but was within the context of the relationship. Somehow that made a lot of sense to me (dunno if it will to anyone else) and now being called his "bitch" turns me on more than the others. Also, he explained what those terms meant to him, personally, and that helped. :)

BoundLady: I would like for my Master to tell us about his thoughts on that .. he has a theory that I find rather interesting

BoundLady: here you go ... :)

ABondager: ok :)

ABondager: I feel that in SSC humilationPlay there must be a factor of deniability in the play. When I call my lady a slut she is not really a slut but loves "playing" at being a slut, since she knows deep in her heart that she is not a slut it helps her keep it in the proper place.

ABondager: did I make myself clear?

sassysub: very much so, Sir

BoundLady: I think the difference is that when he calls me his slut, I know that I am not really a slut, but I am a slut for him. If he were to call me a fat pig I would probably sit there and think "Maybe he really thinks I am fat .. oh my god, I am fat ... he doesn't like the way I look" .. because I am a little overweight I have a hard time getting that deniablility factor, it could, after all, be true.

ABondager: yes

sassysub: GA MatureDom

MatureDom: SSC means that we have an obligation not to harm the submissive physically or mentally - good negotiation will reach some emotional "hot spots", but not the one's really hidden - if one is struck in a scene or play - what would you advise doing?

ABondager: I am assuming that you mean what do you do if, in the middle of a scene, you "push" the wrong button?

MatureDom: yes, exactly.

sassysub: QUE: MaccDom Nordicia fssw-fran

MaccDom: Thanks. Do you not feel there is a difference between humiliation and degradation. I find the first can be quite erotic in D/s play. But if one take things to the point of dehumanizing his submissive, it can lead to very unpleasant consequences.

MaccDom: For example. .

ABondager: the first concern is the care of your partner I would stop the scene and tend to her and find out what went wrong

BoundLady: I think after you hold her and wait for her to calm down (I for one get would cry a lot) you will have to talk about it .. go into detail .. when did it start

ABondager: and make sure that no blame or guilt is given

MatureDom: try to find the reason for the trigger?

BoundLady: feeling wrong, why, what did it feel like ... if you can find out exactly when and where it happened you can work on it and avoid that spot next time, or push it in a different way so you can overcome that limit

BoundLady is confused, which question was the next one to answer?

sassysub: Matur eDom, has your ? been addressed?

MatureDom: yes.

sassysub: thank-you Sir

sassysub: GA MaccDom, Sir :o)

sassysub: <MaccDom> Thanks. Do you not feel there is a difference between humiliation and degradation. I find the first can be quite erotic in D/s play. But if one take things to the point of dehumanizing his submissive, it can lead to very unpleasant consequences.

sassysub: <MaccDom> For example. .

MaccDom: Thanks. And again, my apologies for going out of turn due to confusion

BoundLady: MD, were you going to give an example of what you were talking about?

MaccDom: You feel that being called a "fat pig' would take quite a toll and harm things with your master BondLady, this would be dehumanizing to you and harm things between the two of you. . Do you not feel that too often people confuse the two things i.e. humiliation and degradation.

MaccDom: and that leads to both destroying a relationship and harming D/s generally.

BoundLady: I think there is a huge difference. And yes, I thnk that is why humiliation has such negative connotations in the scene. It is seen as degradation only, without the SSC aspect of our lifestyle. Again, to me there is the difference

MaccDom: Do you feel this distinction is often not understood by some D/s couples?

BoundLady: between SSC humiliation play and abuse ... you can go many places with humiliation without seriously injuring the feeling of self worth of a submissive. As long as my Master makes sure that I know who I am for him, that he respects me just as much as I respect him, we are good to go. If he were to stop that and just put me down to put me down ... then I would have the same thing my ex husband gave me in an abusive relationship..

fireNdark: GA fran

fssw-fran: I like when my Master calls me any name he chooses. I don't play at being his slut; I am his slut. I like to be reminded of that. It's not a matter of deniablity; it's a matter of reality for us. And I like to be dehumanized, objectified, and degraded as his slut. Unpleasantness is as much part of our play and contract as all of the nice little affirmations.

fssw-fran: I suppose some of us find self worth in different things.

BoundLady: I agree, we all go different places with humiliation. We go as far as we can go right now, he knows when he can push and when he can not push. I feel safe with him, feel safe enough to have given him the power to go where he feels he can go ... and I am glad that he doesn't abuse that and go further then I could handle. :)

fssw-fran: Is it weird to say I find safety in being pushed by him?

BoundLady: That's why he is my Master, he knows what I need, and I can give him what he needs. Karl is your Master, he knows what it is you need, and you can give him what he needs.

fssw-fran: I try to give him what he needs; don't exactly know if I accomplish that.

BoundLady: I'm sure he will let you know if you don't. <G> ..

fssw-fran: In more ways than one.

[Poptart]: (yes, she accomplishes that. :-)

fireNdark: GA Chaos sir

Chaosmstr: In reguards to the "how do you fix it when it goes wrong" question, being one who is just recently getting into some real play (thank you Anne Rice) I still find those triggers even after knowing her for some time, and it sometimes puts her off for DAYS.. no matter what I do to try and fix it at the time it happens.

Chaosmstr: a more particular question then is .. is it me finding a particularly bad button, or a problem with her own self esteem/

fireNdark: GA ABondager sir

ABondager: ok

ABondager: Boundlady mentioned that "he know when he can push and when he cannot push" I do not want to give the impression that it is that easy. Frequently I do not know how far I can push but I go very slowly and use all my knowledge I have of her and her past. It is like walking across thin ice. you can improve your chances by studying the layout beforehand and going very slowly and not commiting yourself until you are sure.

ABondager: I constantly study her during a hard humilation scene trying to read what she is feeling.That is why what Boundlady said about humilation play with casual players really is true. It takes trust on her part and knowledge and concern on my part to make the scene work

ABondager: end

fireNdark: GA soraya

soraya: You mentioned before about humiliation before building the sub back up again, but I am curious as to what the Dom gets out of the scene, while actually in progress ?

BoundLady: master needs to answer that one :)

ABondager: ok : Make no mistake that humilation scenes are a lot of work, take a lot of planning, and have a high degree of risk, so the question of what do I get out of it is genuine. I enjoy the fact that she is willing to do these things for me. I like the fact that she is willing to make the effort to do what I want. I love the effect it has on her :) and the "s pace" it puts her in

ABondager: I do not "get" much out of humiliting her I use it as a tool for a higher purpose. It is after the scene that I get the "good job" feeling

ABondager: end

fireNdark: Ok ladies and gentlemen....it's Open QUE (free for all)

sushi^: Abonager, thanks for adding that important bit at the end...your perspective :)

fireNdark applauds BoundLady and ABondager

BoundLady: First I would like to thank all of you for inviting me here tonight. I am very honored to have been your guest speaker tonight and hope I was able to mention a few things that sound good :)

ABondager: my pleasure I hope it helped

cfish{V} applauds BoundLady and ABondager :)

TheMaSTeR claps then looks around and ducks back into his seat.

MatureDom nods appreciation at an excellent discussion.

MaccDom: You are a great speaker BoundLady.

sassysub: ABondager, Sir....you say you don't get anything from the humiliation part, i assume that would be other than the satisfaction that your sub has recd something she desires?

sushi^: thank you for clearing up a grey area Boundlady!

MaccDom: As is your Master, my congratulations.

TheKttN: i am kinda speechless:) thank you ABondager and BoundLady:)

Nordicia: thank You BoundLady and ABondager and sassy and firendark :))

ABondager: that is correct that was the "higher purpose" i was refering to

BoundLady: Thank you everyone :)

Chaosmstr: Where does something like imposing an enema fit into this? it's both humiliating, and degrading.. or could be construed as such. Would someone use that as punishemnt, or as a starter in a humiliation scene?

ABondager: enamas can be used for many things depending on the person and the scene

BoundLady: we got into them rather early, in the course of what he called my "toilet training"

KennysPet: toilet training?

BoundLady: it was something I was absolutely not interested in, but that has changed by now ... once in a while I even get one for medicinal reasons now <G>

sassysub: i agree w/BoundLady's desire of humiliation and i see where ppl get that and embarrassment confused....am i to assume that when you humiliate BoundLady, Sir, that it is never in public ?

ABondager: Toilet training -- taking control of her toilet

BoundLady: yes Pet, asking to go to the bathroom, starting by going with the door open, then he stood in the door watching me, etc. Something that was very hard for me when we first started out

Chaosmstr: thanx.. :>

KennysPet: oh ok...I understand. Thank you.

ABondager: define public we never involve non witting people in the scene but we do play in public witting public that is

sassysub: oh heck...i can potty in front of anyone *g* i AM from da south...outhouses, ya know....or trees, if we're lucky to find one not occupied

cfish{V} notes something that helps her understand "humiliation" and its place in D/s.....the fact that "humiliation" comes from the word "humility"

MatureDom: what about risk taking - playing in public - with others not aware - but the submissive getting off on maybe getting caught?

cfish{V} giggles at sassy...that's a Mom thang

ABondager: involving non witting people in the scene is a limit with me

sassysub: public being oh say at dinner w/friends, maybe a little frisky, maybe she did something 'unruly'

flower^: or just a restaurant...

MatureDom: no sassy - out in the public, a restaurant or whatever.

Gene`: thank you BoundLady and ABondager for a nice discussion

BoundLady: oh sassy, I can go to the bathroom in front of my kids, but with a man around is different. and then when it gets noisy ... oh my .. the humiliation. I'm one of the people when I go to a public bathroom and I know there will be noise when I go I wait until eveyone is gone <G>

ABondager: if all the people involved were witting no problem

sassysub: lol BoundLady...i guess years of no privacy, even w/adults and working w/nurses so much in my earlier years....it's all a fact of life for me, ya gotta poo....ya gotta poo

sushi^: lol BL - me too about the public restrooms, but still, enemas a big turn on go figure

BoundLady: I hear of scenes in restaurants, like leaving panties on the table and stuff ... I don't think i would want to do that, because the person clearing the table could be some 16 year old busboy ... would not feel right I think.

sassysub: but i do understand what you mean and it's quite common in lotsa ladies

BoundLady: on the other hand being made to walk around with my panties around my ankles in our local club is a different story, everyone there is scene, and they find it rather amusing <G>

ABondager: as did I sweetie

sassysub: now THAT would humiliate me

KuursPet: Master is fond of "fondling" me when we are in the car, which I guess is subjecting an unwitting public to our private play

ABondager: I have taken her through a drive through window as MCds blindfolded and tied before.That is the closest we have come to involving non witting people in the scene

sassysub: now that would be interesting

BoundLady: oh my .. that was so hot. still don't know if the little girl saw me :)

sushi^: wow - what if she reported you as a kidnapper??

ABondager: I know :|

KuursPet: LOL - there are truck drivers on I-5 who will never forget me, or what can be done with clothespins

ABondager: that is a very good concern with public play you might come across a hero

sushi^: risks risks ;-)

flower^: that could happen and consensual or not, there could be an arrest

Twists: As a former manager at Mcdonalds, that would be my first instinct to do...

ABondager: however I do not feelt that too many kidnappers would treat their "guest" to MCds <G>

MatureDom: hehehe!

ariel^: why not, ABondager? maybe they would want to keep them alive for the ransom money

flower^: Abondager, Sir...it happened in my town to a Hospice nurse :-/

sassysub: nah, they'd go to Taco Bell

sassysub: crossin da border *nudge*

BoundLady: all you bought me was a soda Sir .. not that I could have used my hands to eat or drink ... and I still think that you had myu blouse unbuttoned too <G>

sushi^: well, i'm sure that felt very risky to you Abonager

ABondager: thats why I am very careful with public play

MatureDom: Suppose, the submissive really gets off on being fondled in a restaurant - how would you handle that? In addition, she enjoys the threat of being caught.

sushi^: a kidnapper and raper besides! <g>

fireNdark slides off chair laffin

ariel^: i think its important to be careful about public play. you know nothing bad is happening, but someone working at mcdonalds doesnt

ABondager: I would take her to a restruant that has private booths or such

BoundLady: Like at the maroccan place :)

sassysub: hmmmmm...big spender...a soda....small, medium or large?

ABondager: finding out that there is an armed citizen suddenly in your scene is not a good thing

Twists: An excellent discussion ABondager and BoundLady, and miel sends her regrets as she is feeling poorly

MatureDom: A nice restaurant, secluded area, but people coming in and out.

BoundLady: give miel my best Twist, hope she feels better soon :)

Twists: I will and good nite all...

ABondager: well there are times when the dominant needs to censure the submissive's fantasies with regard to reality

BoundLady: I think that is one of the most important roles the dominant plays ... using his sound judgement to decide what can be done and what can not be done.

ariel^: i agree, BL

BoundLady: I read a story where a couple went into a department store dressing room, did it in there, and he came all over the mirror .. and they left it .. I find that to be rather disgusting and involving someone into your scene in a nasty way

sassysub: i agree, BoundLady in poor taste

ariel^: yeah, thats extrememly inconsiderate at best

BoundLady: well sassy .. did you hear what I got for valentines day?

sassysub: no, what did you get? wait......am i gonna swoon??? cuz if so...i need to sit down....listens...i'm sitting

ABondager: she actually got two presents but I had to take one back :()

BoundLady: First he got me a string of perls .. but they did not work with my permanent collar. so he went and bought me a diamond heart pendant :)))

ABondager: "bondage on a budget" YUCK!

BoundLady is still dancing

sassysub: oh WOW...how very very nice!!!!!!!

ariel^: wow, BL! :-)

sassysub applauds ABondager...i'm very impressed Sir

ABondager: well she is worth it

BoundLady is such a lucky girl :)

sassysub smiles...i think you both are worth it

BoundLady: oh shucks sir ... :)

sushi^: thank you all for an interesting evening!

fireNdark is pulling another Dennis Miller...."I AM outta here"

fireNdark: :)* BoundLady, ABondager....thank you again

ABondager: our pleasure

BoundLady: anyways, don't you all think that the dominant is usually able to find a way to translate fantasies of his submissive into SSC realities .. without hurting any innocent bystander in the process?

sassysub: okie...i'll be at work by 8:30

KuursPet: BL - mine certainly does. My fantasies don't always play out the way I dream them, but they almost always play out satisfactorily <g>

BoundLady: exactly :) and also, we might dream of some things, but do we REALLY want them to happen?

ABondager: one of the hardest things a dominant must do is say no to his Submissive's fantasy

BoundLady: I mean, sure, I fantasize about being done by a dozen guys and wear cum all over my body .. but do I really want that? Probably not <G>

MaccDom: Well put BL and AB.

ABondager: sorry BL I could only get 9 guys ...... and that goat of course

KuursPet: Hmmm - maybe 8 or 9, but a dozen?

BoundLady: well Sir, is okay, as long as you make sure the goat is there :)

ABondager: I will if you promise not to tire him out had a devil of a time with his owner explaining

BoundLady: I try my best Sir, just bring stronger guys <g>

ABondager: you know you just cant get good goats these days

cfish{V}: thank you BoundLady and ABondager for a wonderful discussion :) Be well, all!

andi{W`}`: im going to go spend time with Master before bed... thanks so much for the talk, BoundLady, and to you ABondager for coming on too

ABondager: my pleasure

sassysub: ABondager, BoundLady,,,thank-you very much for the discussion tonight....you've spoken of a subject that i've had strong feelings about but couldn't ever put it into perpective,,,,you've done that for me tonight *smile* i hope y'all visit us again soon on #submission and on future discussion here on #submission_discuss

BoundLady: I think we will be leaving also, maybe now that Master is not an IRC virgin anymore I can get him on here more often. :)

ABondager: never IRC will not posses me!!

BoundLady: Thanks again for the invitation, I was very honored :)

claudia{A: thank you BoundLady for the discussion :)

BoundLady: well sir, you can try to dom it though :)

sassysub: you did a GREAT job, BoundLady

ABondager: well maybe the gorean channels <grin>

MaccDom: Thank you BL and AB. Great discussion.

BoundLady harumphs

ABondager: yes she did i am so poud of her

ABondager: some times you gotta have some pagga

TheKttN: thank you so much again BoundLady *hugs* and thank you too ABondager:)

BoundLady: Good night veryone :)

ABondager: :)

BoundLady passes out huggs to everyone that wants them and hands her Master the leash.

soraya: thanks you guys :)

ABondager: good night everyone thanks for allowing me to comment

sassysub waves g'nite

MaccDom: Goodnight BL and AB.

Thor- adds his thanks to those of the rest, and waves goodnight to BL and AB.

ABondager: :) thanks again

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