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The Gorean Philosophy sassysub: Good evening everyone, welcome to #submission_discuss, we are very happy you could join us tonight. We ask that you keep greetings and such to private msgs when the discussion starts. We will be taking your names for questions (?) and comments (!). Pls msg Cats^kitN with ? or ! in order for your nick to be put in queu. We will not tolerate slandering, flames or attacks of any kind. We will kick and ban if it is needed. We hope that you enjoy tonight's discussion. Kree: We would like to welcome all of you tonight Kree: The invitation to this discussions read as follows: Kree: What is Gor? Is it a mythical planet, fantasy roleplay, or a way of life with many of the same real time ideals and philosophies practiced in BDSM as we know it. Please join us in finding these similarities as Bear- and Zeb of #Silk&Steel on Dalnet share their thoughtful insights. Kree: This is NOT a forum to argue, or to proclaim your lifestyle is the better, or to attack channel "politics", or attack the speakers personally, it is a place to share ideas and communicate, and hopefully understand a little more about one another. Kree: The worst difficulty that any lifestyle faces is from within. You have all seen it. the masochist doesn't understand the .submissive, the submissive argues about what is a slave, the sadist is called an abuser. Kree: For all of us to find our place it is a necessity to respect the views and opinions of others and we will ask that of you tonight, and accept nothing less. Kree: It isnt necessary that you agree, only that you respect the views of others. Kree: We appreciate you joining us this evening. Kree: We will now begin....... Bear... Zeb Bear- smiles Kree: the floor is yours cala nods Bear-: Tal and greetings. :) Bear-: I am Bear. For those who do not know me, I will say very quickly that I have been living this lifestyle for 17 years, and before that I had been involved with bdsm for nearly three... Bear-: Used to be, when I did these, I would have to explain what GOR is. ;) Zeb smiles. Bear-: But since the success of the Silk&Steel on DALnet, that is no logner needed (both for better and worse). So tonight, Zeb and I will take questions and try to give answers based on our experience in the lifestyle. ;) Bear-: Zeb? Zeb: I too have been "Gorean" for about as long as Bear, although I didn't really know it. Zeb: That may seem a bit ambiguous, but hopefully some of you will understand what I mean as we go on. Zeb: I say we open the floor, eh? Bear-: Sounds good. :) sassysub: again, pls mssg Cats^kitN w/ ? or ! if you want to ask a question or make a comment sassysub: you will be put in que....please refrain from speaking out of turn as hard as that is to do at times Zeb: Well, that was easy. Thanks for coming! Bear- grins sassysub: ACK! sassysub: lol...we are getting ?s and !s fireNdark: GA Tanith Zeb copies from Bear's notes. Tanith wants to watch, listen and learn, but feels odd about having to relate to strangers in a BDSM sense instead of as regular old people....please dont' take offense; this is not a judgement, but sincere confusion. Tanith: GA Tanith is a happy friendly type, and to her it doesn't matter what somebody does in bed or in the dungeon; she just likes to relate as friends, y'know? Bear-: You should not have to. I certainly am not and do not see you in a bdsm sense. :) All I see is a channel full of people and a opportunity to enjoy come discourse, eh? Bear-: So let us do so. :) Bear- nods cala grins thinking Bear gives away his Canuck heritage with his use of "eh" Bear-: Sounds good to me. I am done. :) Tanith: Could you explain please how you view this type of interaction, DS with strangers? Bear-: I am not sure what exactly you mean there, Tanith? Bear- can be a little slow in his old age. :) Tanith: All submissives are submissive to all dominants, and all dominants are dominant over all submissives, generically. I understand that is one of the primary differences that Goreans have from BDSM'rs? Zeb wrinkles his brow. Bear-: I do not think I would call it a promary difference, there are many more important ones, but it is certainly one, yes. :) fireNdark: GA swtjaane Bear- waits swtjaane: a girl asked what Bear feels the differences are Bear-: I did not see the question, jarrra, type it again. Differences in what? Bear- smiles swtjaane: smiles back what the differences you mentioned were Bear-: Between Goreans an bdsmer's? swtjaane: yes Bear-: There are many. Among them is that a Gorean man must walk with honor (in the Gorean sense of the word) while a Dom, may certainly do so, he has the choice to NOT do so and remain a Dom. :0) Done. swtjaane: and of the abuse? Kree: jaaane abuse is in the eyes of the beholder, as we mentioned in the opening. it isnt for us to judge that in this forum fireNdark: GA anima :) Bear-: You will have to define abuse for me, jarrra. The other night, you were unable to, and in your whisperings to the ops here, you quoted me as saying: "you may be able to charm Bear-: <channelop> others with what is between your legs but i mean to abuse it" Bear-: It is a good thing that I log all my private conversations, since I said no such thing. swtjaane: yes Master Bear-: Now, those lies, I consider abuse. :) swtjaane: no Master i also have a log Zeb tsks. swtjaane: but its no matter Bear-: Indeed. :) swtjaane: just was a question of the differences in the word honor swtjaane: the mannerisms Bear-: It takes a very long time, jarrra, to understand honor. It is not my intention to explain it to a group of people, most of which probably do not care for my definition. :) Bear- winks Bear-: Next? anima`: I don't understand your customs online, but beyond that - in your real time bdsm practice at home in your bedrooms or whatever - what differences there? Bear-: I do not restrict what I am to the bedroom, that is first. :) I suppose what I do there is very similar to what you do there, I mean, there are only so many ways to do it, yes? ;) anima`: Uhm, no... anima` grins. Bear- grins Bear-: Understand: anima`: I suppose what I'm getting at is like - how do your realtime relationships differ from our own? Bear-: Being Gorean does not define us *sexually* Bear-: It is a small part of us as people. ;) Bear-: I assume they are very similar, anima. I cut the lawn and do the marketing and pay the bills, like anyone. :) Zeb: Interesting question. I consider myself a "real time" Gorean. I do not own a slave. In my bedroom, I'm fairly "normal" (if there is such a thing). Zeb: But one thing about a Gorean relationship is what I call the "vector of pleasure." Zeb: It does not matter whether it is in or out of the bedroom... the entire focus of the relationship is on the Master's pleasure. Zeb: Understand that it may please him, at times, to let the slave have her way. But it is purely his pleasure to do so. Bear-: I am done. :) Zeb: Done. MMscandi: ok ive been in a Total power aka absolute power relationship for many years (12 to be exact) id like to know how you view the differences between gorean and absolute power... keeping in mind while my Master owns me he also loves and cherishes and respects me ... yet i am very much his slave. admittedly ive read the gorean books ....i have been to silk and steel ive seen very little of that said honor in gorean chat MMscandi: says i talk too much MMscandi: ) end Zeb: I'm unsure of how you can say that your Master loves, cherishes, and respects you, and yet has absolute power. Zeb: But assuming that this is so, I do not see a significant difference. Zeb: Your statement seems to assume that a Gorean Master cannot love, cherish, etc. Zeb: I assure he can and does. It is merely the way he expresses these feelings that often throws people off. Zeb: As far as "honor" goes... it is a word that is tossed about entirely too much. I define honor as I wish. So do you. MMscandi: well for me Master wants wishes a very smart slave its not much fun for him if i am not ...how can one not respect and honor and cherish and love owning such? Zeb: Gorean slaves are not smart? Zeb: On the contrary, intelligence increases a woman's value. Zeb: Done Bear-: "Gorean" philosophy is not predicated on relationships. Nor owning slaves, nor women in general. Being Gorean has all those things in it, to be sure, but one does not need any of them to be Gorean. :) That is the difference. Bear-: Done. :) ladyjade: You both have mentioned that you "live the lifestyle" I make the assumption that you mean this in a real life sense. How is this accomplished and can you give a an example of how Gor lifestyle can be seen in a public arena? end Bear-: I have shaped my life around the philosophy. I have a Free Companion, with whom I repledge our comittment every year according to both our lifestyle and our religion. I have a slave who lives with us and has for the last 6 years. All of this, while not needed to *be* Gorean, is a reflection of my living it *offline*. Bear-: Done Zeb: I do not own a slave. But I am entirely Gorean because I subscribe to a set of codes. I am a "real life" Warrior and I am in the business of being prepared to take lives or offer my own if called upon to do so. Zeb: To do that requires integrity, honor, loyalty, and duty. The way that I integrate those things into my life is what makes me Gorean. Zeb: Done. Danath: I wished to comment on the introduction, considering that it only had three choices: A mythical planet, fantasy roleplay, and realtime ideals practiced in BDSM. It seems a bit "leading" to me, considering that by the definitions involved, the B and the D and the S and the M have different meanings in each "separate" philosophy... Danath: <Danath> With the S and the M being largely absent from a Gorean's standpoint, within his own life, for the most part. But, it seems that one thing that I either did not see, or was not said previous, is that difference between the lifestyles, as in many submissives seem to have "safewords" to control their master's with. Gorean men do not accept them, nor are they needed. That's my two tarsks :) Bear- nods Bear-: ;0) Bear-: Done Danath laughs Raven^: I often hear lifestylers of Gor say they live by a warriors code, and I wonder don't we all? Gorean or any other human beings? Don't we all have to adhere by some rules, some code of decency and honor? Bear-: Some do, Raven, some do not. But codes are not all the same. :) Bear-: Just as we are all not the same. Bear-: I think it is important to get this our right away: Zeb: If we all abiding by codes of decency and honor, we would need no bars on our windows, locks on our doors, policemen in our streets, or Warriors who stand ready to walk in harm's way. Bear-: Or not. :) ldyStone: In general, do most newcomers to the Gorean lifestyle have prior experience in bdsm? Also, do You notice any correlation between age and those entering the Gorean way? end Zeb: I'd say there is no "standard" newcomer, ldyStone. Everyone is unique. Bear-: Many of those whom I know have had some exposure, I certainly did. However, it is not a prerequisite. As far as age, I think that depends on the person, but one has to live before one can make real choices, IMO. Done Zeb: I have noticed that most tend to be a bit more mature. Zeb: Done. Bear-: YEah, what he said with less words. :) ProvokeMe: GA MasterMars Bear- waits MastrMars: I am curious why some Gorean use the term "sub" to insult a slave, since being a submissive or a slave, it is all a choice Bear-: To us, and this is not universal by any means, but a "sub" or "subbie" is a girl who has not as yet touched her slave belly, who still puts her needs before those of her owner and who will act out in a displeasing manner when angry, tired, frustrated or simply PMS. ;0) Zeb: Good question. I think it is done to point out some of the perceived differences. Some subs are allowed to be disrespectful, to set their own limits, to effectively retain control of their relationships. Bear-: Done. :) Zeb: While this may be perfectly acceptable in a bdsm environment, it is foolish to bring this attitude to Gor and expect to be treated the same way. Zeb: Done. cala: There is a perception that in the Gorean way..a Master does not display affection for his slave. Certainly many see on the surface the Norman writings (tho he does certainly express Tarl Cabot's tender feelings for some kajira) portray that Gorean Masters hold their slaves in little true regard. I think that is problematic for most outside the Gorean way to understand/value or be comfortable with and even more difficult to see as a lifestyle. Coul Bear- waits for the second part. cala: could you speak to that please Masters..thankyou Bear-: It is important to note that we do not live our lives out of a book. :0) It is a common misconception online due to the larg numbers of people who claim to be Gorean, but simply play this as a game in order that they can have cybersex. WHile it is true in the books, men might not have been overtly affentionate, neither did they pass gas, and I assure you Gorean men do so. :) Zeb: There are numerous examples in the books of Masters who obviously loved their slaves. I have seen it in real relationships as well. Bear-: Indeed, this is real people living real lives. SOmething I concur is hard to understand watching some of the "goreans" on the net. But there are real ones out here, and we are not that different than you, I would bet. ;) Bear-: Done Zeb: It is just a good opportunity to rib one's fellow as being "weak" or "whipped," but we certainly know it occurs. It's a man thing, I guess :) Zeb: Done cala: it is not my experience that there is no affection.Thankyou Master Mar`Pai: in my time in Gor, I've noticed Love, cherish, protect can all apply to slaves, in fact slaves often are treated better than many "FreeWomen" both in the Novels and in IRC. Of so it has been in my personal experience Bear- nods Bear-: Done sassysub: Masters Bear and Zeb...you have both spoken of honor, can you each explain what that honor is and how you uphold it. I understand this question could take days to answer but a brief synopsis would be grateful. thanks <done> btw...we need some ? and ! ..msg Cats^kitN if you will :) Zeb: Simply answered? Honor is looking myself in the mirror every day and being comfortable with what I see. Zeb: Done Bear-: Indeed, this could take a week. Understand that each will have his own definition of honor. I have been reticent to discuss honor online for a simple reason: Zeb and I brought the talk of GOR to this medium, and many learned to talk it while making it into a shallow sex game. I am not prepared to teach them to walk it, and then sit back and see what they do with it then. THat said, I have to note that the Gorean men I have found in my life all Bear-: Done Joachim: To BDSM'ers, I say this:Try and understand that HONOR is more important to a Gorean male than his own life. If a BDSM'er can say that with truth, then I say..welcome to Gor..because if you truly understand that, then a Gorean heart beats in your breast. It cannot be taken from you, added to, or tarnished by anyone other than you..it is yours and in your hand alone..so when you talk of honor...prepare to speak of something more important t Bear-: What Joachim says is also true. :) Joachim grins and winks Bear-: THat said, I have to note that the Gorean men I have found in my life all seem to have a very close definiton of honor, by their actions. Bear-: <Bear-> Done LadyNite: well seeing as I arrived at this discussion late.....what is the Gorean; a lifestyle or a frame of Mind? Bear- nods Zeb: I'm not sure I see the difference in those two choices. Can one do one without the other? I don't believe... Bear-: It is a lifestyle. The philosophy affects every facet of ones life. It is a very difficult way to live, considering our current PC society - and noting the disregard even shown by those in the bdsm community, who should certainly understand. :) Bear-: Done Zeb: A side note regarding Bear's comment. Zeb: BDSMers are supposed to be some of the most tolerant of all people. Zeb: Meaning that one person's kink is tolerated as much as anothers. Zeb: But the Goreans are not always afforded that respect. Zeb: Done. sassysub: valid point, Master Zeb TheKttN: GA ma^ri{Tel ma^ri{Tel: What do you consider mature Master Zeb? age or by what they know? Zeb: Age and maturity *usually* go hand in hand. But it is not a 100% correlation. I have seen 18 year olds who were more mature than 45 year olds. Zeb: Done Bear-: Done ProvokeMe: GA Kree Kree: I have a comment on honor, perhaps there are those that practice a Gor lifestyle that have that honor, but Gor doesnt have a patent on honor. Honor is found among many people and the disciples of John Norman didnt invent it. Honor existed way before the 1960s when Norman began writing. Unfortunately, Gor has gotten a bad name in many places from those that claim that loveof honor and hide behind 5 names to collect slaves onine. The same is true i Kree: done Zeb suggests that long comments or questions be cut into more than one line, since we often lose the tail end. Zeb: As a matter of fact, Kree, there are some Goreans without honor. The books have many examples. Bear-: Kree, you are correct. You will note that we speak often of *Gorean* honor. Also, I agree, as Zeb said earlier, honor is a word bandied about much by those online who have no idea what it means.. Kree: I agree Kree: Honor is a personal matter regardless of were it is found. Kree: that was cut off Kree: now done... smiles ProvokeMe: GA jadebty jadedbty: You talk about Honor as the biggest difference in "Goreans" and say a Dom can act without it and still be a dom.. you also refuse to tell us exactly what your "honor" is. Ive repeatedly seen girls hurt, mistreated, and definately treated without honor in gor by the Masters who are considered most gorean. Things no dom could get away with, so I would like to understand what exactly gorean honor is? is it just in how men relate to jadedbty: sorry if you already answered this, but I was afk for a bit handling an emergency Zeb: Have you ever seen me hurt, or mistreat (I need a definition of that) a girl? No. jadedbty: YES Master Zeb.. repeatedly Bear-: No jadedbty. I did not speak of that as the "biggest" difference, only one difference. If a girl is hurt or feels she is "mistreated" online, then most likely she is in the wrong place. As I have explained to you in the past, not all can do what we do and not everyone should try. :0) Zeb: Oh, of course you have. jadedbty: was told the most important part of my ? was cut off jadedbty: so I would like to understand what exactly gorean honor is? is it just in how men relate to one another or does it have to do with how they treat their slaves? Zeb: Because I choose to disregard some limp little girl in the way that *you* think I should, I hurt her. Next question. Bear-: To a sub, what we do *is* mistreatment, to a slavegirl who is
Gorean, it is not. ANd I will point out that if we abuse and mistreat
*soooooo* many women, it is strange that so many return, over and over
and blossom and become fulfilled in what we do. ;0) darma: a question on safewords, what happens if a Master is truely hurting a girl, with no prior safeword in place would this not set up a possibility of real damage? also what of the deep emotional scares that could happen if a Master pushes a girl too far and doesn't realize what He has done, are your attitudes such that a Gorean slave would take it because it pleases the Master? <done> Bear-: You h ave to understand darma. Living Gorean is not about sex. There is nothing to stop a girl from telling her owner that she is in pain, she does not think about ruining his "scene". In order to appreciate what we do, you have to change your mindset a bit. Mastiff: Tal, my friends (and employers)... I simply want to commend Bear and Zeb for coming and attempting to explain what we believe. I have heard some already speak of abuse, lack of honor, and men deviod of love... seems many come with preconceived notions and closed minds. Zeb: I am not convinced that every single person who claims to be a Dom has the maturity or self control that you seem to require. So why should you hold everyone who claims to be a Gorean Master to that standard? Mastiff: Realize that no Gorean here is looking for you to validate how we live... we came, simply, to explain Mastiff: Im done... Zeb finishes answering darma. Bear-: Indeed, there is not need for validation, we all live our own lives. And we were invited here to speak. :0) Bear-: Done Mastiff chuckles Zeb has no response to Mastiff's comment except that you *still* ain't getting no raise. Mastiff: Im done... and JUST a atrsk, boss! Mastiff: tarsk... Cats^kitN: the Ques is Mastiff ldyjade kree MasterMars <|Psyche| MastrMarc Mar`Pai MMscandi tyki{KTs Tanith Kogg ProvokeMe: MasterMars... you're next MastrMars: I personally think one form of D/s is better than another, I believe people should take what ever feel right for them and their partner, as far as I'm concern there no "rules" as to what D/s is, It what ever works for you, but I have seen both Gorean and BDSM people put down the other as being less than "REAL D/s", I hope that talks like this one can start to put a stop to that type of thinking, "God, isn't it bad enoug MastrMars: on the "Jerry Springer Show" MastrMars: make that "NOt" better Bear-: I do not at all consider what I do to be "D/s". It has elements of that in it, it contains some of D/s and M/s, but neither the lifestyle nor the philosophy is predicated on it. That is something many do not understand. Bear-: Done Zeb: Well, no screaming eagle shit, Mars. Thanks. I have never asked anybody to become Gorean. All I ever wanted was for people to understand that it is right for me. If they don't like it, don't do it. Zeb: Done MastrMars: Bear D/s is not all sexual, it is a lifestyle Bear- smiles Kree: PM I did mine Bear-: There, we do not agree. Bear-: I have lived both and my opinion will be differnt than yours. |Psyche|: I had a question already set to ask, but, waht was just said in channel is far more interesting.... |Psyche|: <MastrMars> Bear D/s is not all sexual, it is a lifestyle |Psyche|: *Bear-* * smiles |Psyche|: <Bear-> There, we do not agree. |Psyche|: <Bear-> I have lived both and my opinion will be differnt than yours. Cats^kitN annouces the que as swtjaane MasterMars <|Psyche| MastrMarc Mar`Pai MMscandi tyki{KTs Tanith Kogg Bear-: I think we all just read it, what is your question? |Psyche|: Bear....? Dominance and Submission are attitudes |Psyche|: they are not at ALL simply sexual---no more than vanilla is |Psyche|: this makes me wonder at what you said about "Gor" not being sexual..... Cats^kitN reannounces the que as MasterMars <|Psyche| MastrMarc Mar`Pai MMscandi tyki{KTs Tanith Kogg Rene Bear-: I disagree. To be a DOm, one must have someone to Dom. To be Gorean one simply has to live ones life by the tradtions and the codes. Bear-: Done |Psyche|: NO! |Psyche|: Not Done... |Psyche|: what you said about a "Dom" says nothing about "sexuality" Bear-: <Bear-> I disagree. To be a DOm, one must have someone to Dom. To be Gorean one simply has to live ones life by the tradtions and the codes. Zeb: Okay, Psyche. So you can dominate a person without having sex. |Psyche|: To Dominate, does not mean to dominate solely sexually....doms take the responsibility of the submission of their subs seriously---far and apart from the sexual aspect of it Zeb: But I am of the opinion that such relationships are not as visible. Zeb: Done MastrMars: Bear, I am Master, whether I have a sub or not, it is part of my lifestyle, the way I see the world, the way I conduct myself, |Psyche|: not as visible as what exactly? lets not retread retoric |Psyche|: *exactly* MastrMars....exactly TheKttN: A reminder, the channel will be open for discussion after the questions. Bear-: That again, is where we will disagree. Based on my years both in the bdsm communities and as a Gorean. I too, thought I was living a lifestyle as a DOm, and there is truth to it. But it is simply not the same as what being Gorean is about. ;) Zeb: Why do you assume that we exclude your lifestyle as a valid option? If that is how you live your life, Mars, fine. Doesn't matter to me. The point is not to place a value judgement on each other. Zeb: Done. MastrMarc: i unfamiliar with gorean masters personally so i am curious if those of you who are have seen a correlation between them and admirers of ayn rand? Kree: If you have a question or comment, please type it out in advance and hit enter when you are called on. Send the ? and the ! to cats^kitn please. If you message anyone other than cats^kitn you will not be placed in the que Zeb: I haven't read Ayn Rand yet, so I really have no comment. Done. Zeb shrugs. Bear-: I know of no one who identifies themself so, so I cannot comment. Done. Mar`Pai: Since I'm familiar with Both Lifestyles, I've noticed that Many Goreans bring it on themselves. They treat main-line BDSM as something less worthy or less honorable. Of course most of these persons don't really know what Gor is about, so it reflects badly one us Mar`Pai: A Gorean Master is probably less likely to hurt his slave, since if he hurts her to badly he will not be able to enjoy her later. And that defeats the very purpose behind having a slave in Gor Mar`Pai: Done ProvokeMe: GA tyki tyki{KTs}: this girl has only just over a year of exposure to Gor and BDSM as she sought something missing in her life. She longed to be dominated, and found a sense of order in the chaos in Gor. The biggest difference tyki has seen between BDSM slaves and Gorean slaves...is perhaps the manipulation for discipline. tyki{KTs}: tyki saw BDSM slaves misbehave hoping to manipulate a Dom into punishing them. In the Gorean way, the whip is present, but seldom used as the slave seeks to be pleasing. What this girl found in Gor was a sense of order within the codes as she was domintated. tyki{KTs}: with that comment out of the way...this girl asks, can a Gorean slave not be honorable...reflecting the honor of her Master, and living her life with honor by being true to what she knows herself to be? Bear-: A Gorean slave cannot hold honor, but she surely can behave hono rably. Most prefer that their girls do so. Done Tanith: There is a significant difference between SM and DS. There is a wide spectrum of activity ranging from pure SM, no dominance, to full time DS/TPE, to Gorean. I am active in the San Francisco BDSM community, and I have seen living, loving, joyful Zeb: A Gorean slave is what she *must* be... she is what her Master demands her to be. If he is pleased to have her behave honorably, she will do so. If he is pleased to have her behave dishonorably, she will do so. Zeb: Done. Bear- shakes his head ProvokeMe: Sorry Zeb.... ProvokeMe: my apologies... Zeb smiles. Tanith: relationships in every end of the spectrum, from gay to transgender to male dom to femdom. And the only problem I have seen is when there is a mismatch - as tyki mentioned, a masochist and a dominant having a problem. Tanith also apologizes; was trying to follow protocol and be ready when called on. Sorry, Zeb. Zeb dismisses the matter without comment. Tanith: To address what tyki said, I think that most people in the BDSM community would find that kind of behavior rude in a so-called submissive - tops and bottoms who like SM play should find one another and negotiate that, and dominants and submissives Tanith: likewise. Tanith: Done. Bear-: Done Zeb: I agree, Tanith. Done. Kogg: many subs come to the S&S and demand to be treated as such. Well, we dont change our rules to accomodate them and, normally, a torrent of cursing follows. They will be treated as slaves...period. Just as I wont come to a D/s channel and demand you change it to be Gorean. Kogg: The next thing I hear is how horrible we are Kogg: Is there a reason why we should change?? DONE Bear-: Done Zeb: No one (to my knowledge) is chained to a computer and forced to enter the Silk & Steel. If someone is uncomfortable with that environment, they are certainly welcome to leave. Zeb: Done. ``Rana``: !Cats^kitN ProvokeMe: GA Rana ProvokeMe: you';re up ``Rana``: think a lot of folks are confused between the difference of b/d (bondage/discipline) .... s/m (sadism/masochism) and d/s (dominance and submission).... they are all different lifestyles ... but Goreans practice a different "philosophy" ``Rana``: that's what makes the world so wonderful, we are all unique and we have the freedom live as we choose... I don't judge what others do ``Rana``: and I don't give a rats ass if someone judges me.... Done Zeb: Done Bear-: Done TheKttN: The discussion is now open, you are all free to speak, QUEUE is closed *** Mode change "-m" on #Submission_Discuss by TheKttN Bear- rises TheKttN: GA janne Aros: Run for the door! <g> swtjaane: Master Bear a girl acknowledged total respect for your earlier statement bout the difference between D&S and Gor this girl asks you to acknowledge the differences among Goreans and she tells you this slave does hold honor and has and chooses to be with Masters that permit this so the differences in Gorean values will vary also thank you Zeb: That was quick. Naysayer rises and picks up laska. Kodius: I have read Ayn Rand, but I don't see the two philosophies as that equivalent....except in their demand for supremacy of the individual....I realize this is long after the question about Rand, but it pleased me to comment :) Done even if too late for the queue kira``` looks up Bear-: Goodnight all. I enjoyed answering your questions, when I had
the chance to. I am available to discuss further on DALnet, Feel free
to message me. Zeb: No time for closing statements? ladygone: !Mastiff fart.wav Zeb makes one anyway. Mastiff: whew...been holding that a LONG time! ma^ri{Tel giggles BigM^: LOL sassysub: yes Zeb, pls do ^starfire giggles Aros sighs as strolls out tyki{KTs} strikes her shoulder in applause and appreciation for the enlightenment shard by Master Zeb and Master Bear- kira``` holds her breath |Psyche|: apparently, Zeb didnt want an open Forum....oh well Kodius chuckles Maddie sprays the air freshner around hoping it works |Psyche|: gads...Bear even.... |Psyche|: sheesh ladygone: !``Rana`` applause.wav ^Kat chuckles kira``` listens |Psyche|: pity..i had a last question to post.... Kogg: There are other Goreans still here Pshyche Zeb: I thank our hosts. I am convinced that there are many among you, some of you wearing @s, who bear animosity towards us. Psyche, by her statement, is, in my opinion, in that crowd. MastrMarc: i did say equivalent about gor & rand. just seems like they would appeal to the same audience KalunHail: Post it Psyche Zeb: But that is mere opinion and doesn't really matter to anyone but me. KalunHail: We will answer. |Psyche|: 'k Kogg...I'll run it to ANY Gorean who wishes to answer... Kree: Zeb this isnt a hayride and I am disappointed that Bear left before the open forum fireNdark groans Tanith agrees that folks shouldn't oughtta go into the S&S unless they are prepared to abide by S&S rules and be respectful of those ways. It's a whole different kettle of parsit fish over there, and if you don't like their thing, don't go there! ^Kat: Zeb, I would say the animosity is 2 fold..since Goreans consider themselves superior to BDSM people..and you and I both know that is truth... BigM^: so true Zeb..it only matters to you |Psyche|: he has left that way, before, Kree.... |Psyche|: ok...my question? here goes... fireNdark: from this channel? Zeb: I do not think, Kree, that an open forum is conducive to a valid discussion. As you can see already, I have received three "shots" before I could finish my statement. Kree: Zeb would you ask Bear to return? Mar`Pai: Excuse me Kat, but I wouldn't say that is so nerual: this girl wonders... also having a knowledge of bdsm and gor, and seen bdsm and gor in rl... how one can judge the other? there are different levels of intensity in both GOR and BDSM... . in real life as well as irc. |Psyche|: Bear....what exactly IS Gorean Honor? Surely you have a definition better than "it is different for everyone" <yes, ProvokeMe, I am not cut&pasting...> swtjaane: Tanith s&s has changed so its hard to know what you will find there when you go Zeb i dont mean to upset you but many of us find that Zeb i am glad your here honestly Kree: Zeb we all take shots.. it is how we handle them that gives us honor swtjaane: and i was glad Bear was here ^Kat: I would Mar, we both know the words subbie and Dom are insults on Gor ldyStone smiles at nerual...good point Belliger: There is even animosity within the Gorean community.. as to who are'real' Goreans and who are not.. we don't run a perfect house.. Mastiff: and what exactly are you, Kat? Gorean? BDSM? slave? free? Tuchuk? Turian? all of the above? |Psyche|: no..I did not shot you, Zeb....it was a misfire--i was "loaded for bear" <smile> ``Rana`` has found that most of the folks that visit the S&S are highly intelligent, mature.. and in most cases, superior....... to those I have met on the d/s b/d s/m channels..... imho..... nerual returns the smile Zeb: I can tell you, Kree, that he would not come. But I can also say that he welcomed the opportunity to speak, as did I. Tanith laughs her ass off. The heavy SM players I know think they're hot shit because they play with knives and fire and electricity and others don't. Some TPE'rs think they are hot shit because they are Really Dominant and the SM players are not. ^Kat: well Mastiff I'm a person :) Mastiff: perhaps Mar`Pai: Becuase they have a different situations iambe finds she must agree with Mistress Rana |Psyche|: and Kogg--Ive seen "Goreans" present here now, demand that ppls behave in THEIR way, when visiting other channels.... Tanith just personally thinks that the world is full of a great many wonderful things and people, and it's best to respect everyone for their differences, not to try to make them just like you. :) |Psyche|: I've even seen one here now tell me that he and a friend went to austnet and found an "enemy's slave" in a channel by herself...they thought it perfectly "Gorean" to abuse her and leave... |Psyche|: > but then...none of this is "real" now, is it? <smile> ^Kat: Mastiff if I am not a person then I am the best well trained monkey you will ever see on the keyboard :) fyra{JH}: Master Zeb, fyra begs permission to leave this channel? Zeb: I am also going back to my "home." Perhaps I shall see some of you there in the future. In any case, I wish you all well. Kree: Anyone abused on IRC should click off Tanith: Thank you, Zeb. :) |Psyche|: be well fyra... kylie{ST}: then they weren't Goreans, Master Psyche, they were thugs :) bina{DsL}: bina wishes You well Master Zeb Mastiff: that has been one supposition, not mine, however merrie{R}: a girl wishes you well Master Zeb ^starfire: be well, Master Zeb :) mounds: mounds is away: a girl would rather be serving in the tavern... shedevyl: what about honoring the commitment for an open forum? myria{Kk}: myria wishes You well, Master Zeb Zeb smacks kira on the butt. nerual: Psyche... how can someone really be abused on irc in a way that is not play? amber``: amber wishes you well Master Zeb Kogg: |Psyche|, perhaps the best definition of honor for you would be found in my bio on the S&S webpage :) kira``` jumps KalunHail: Be well Zeb Zeb: Out wench. ``Rana``: Be well Zeb shewlf{T} smiles, in my opinion, a personal choice is just that... there are many that frequent D/s channels and Gorean channels that do not enter the others domain without an open and clear mind. We that are active in D/s channels do not enjoy HNGs entering and disrupting... we must not be the HNGs into the Gorean rooms.... enter and learn... fyra{JH}: Master Andric fyra begs permissoin to leave dia`: dia wishes You well, Master Zeb :) kira``` rises and leaves kira```: Thank you, Master Andric: go dia. Zeb: You may go, fyra. dia`: yes, Master ^Kat: Mastiff thats nice, but then again, I do Gor as roleplay, I live the lifestyle of D/s..and when you do Gor in the real world its D/s because Gor centers around non-consentuality and unless you enjoy jail you can't do Gor in the real world shedevyl: this would be a wonderful opportunity to demonstrate honoring one's word by staying for the open forum part as agreed. Andric: I wish you all well. ma^ri{Tel whisper's Permission to be excused? kylie{ST}: may kylie be dismissed Masters? |Psyche|: I doubt you will see any FWs there, Zeb...your website says that those who behave" are welcome..i have never said spit in that channel, S&S, but not a time goes by that a "Master" decides he is going to try to pick at me...tsk tsk tsk fyra{JH}: thank you Master Zeb merrie{R}: a girl wishes you well Master Andric ^starfire: may star be excused, Masters? Mastiff: ask my slave, Kat.... ^Kat: no thanks Mastiff, I don't care to ask the brainwashed |Psyche|: be well starfire...this isnt a Gorean Channel....but be well anyways Ramius`: go star iambe: may this girl please be excused, Masters, Mistress? Zeb: Hate to disappoint you, Psyche, (well not really... I'm happy to disappoint you). We have a lot of FWs there. swtjaane: ^Kat gorean slaves are not brainwashed lol! ^starfire: thank You Master bina{DsL}: may bina be excused Masters? her Master is calling her.. ``Rana`` is a freewoman, and she enjoys her visits to the Silk and Steel, she has never been shown any disrespect since she began visiting.... Kogg: go iambe *** Zeb has left channel #submission_discuss Mastiff laughs kylie{ST}: may kylie go please? ma^ri{Tel is FAR from brainwashed! iambe: thank you Master Kogg :) myria{Kk} laughs at the idea of being brainwashed ^Kat: swtjaane if they aren't brainwashed then they are the worst cases of co-dependents I have ever seen, for only a co-dependent would take pleasure from being considered lower than dirt Mastiff: FC of TarnldrAres & Tuchuk & Citizen of Turia.... uh huh, at least she isnt a player swtjaane: thinks many on Gor would like to borax her brain chuckle tyki{KTs} Master enjoys the fresh thoughts of his kajira Ramius`: Go kylie ldyStone: i would like to say that no matter what differences exist between BDSM and Gor, all (or at least i hope all) of us here have something in common...we are living out and exploring what we feel in our hearts kylie{ST}: thank You Master :) ^Kat: we are all players Mastiff, this, in case you haven't noticed, is a computer keyboard under your fingers :)) |Psyche|: and neural..it isnt real--that is my point--GOR isnt REAL either..it exists in a series ofbooks that pandered to adolescent young men--and made the guy who wrote them a bundle...;> swtjaane: Kat it varies the treatment i mean from channel to channel from group to group from relationship to relationship much like D&S merrie{R} smiles to ldyStone in agreement amber`` listens quietly to all comments.. ``Rana`` holds up her glass and says "hear, hear" to ldyStone nerual: Kat, Mistress.... if slaves are lower than dirt on Gor... then dirt has apparently more worth than i thought Mastiff: and the slave kneeling at my feet ldyStone smiles at merrie and Rana Mastiff: I come here to be with people who understand who and what I am... I see the number dwindling here tyki{KTs}: excuse this girl but Gorean kajira are not lower than dirt...they are the property of their Masters and are valued for the pleasure they bring their Masters Belliger: genuine comment, ldyStone.. :) |Psyche| grins...not for very long do you have FWs there, hon....only on certain hours and not around certain Ops.... ^Kat: aye reality has a way of dwindling numbers Mastiff KalunHail: Actually Phyche, It didn't Make Norman a bundle..., It got him Blacklisted.. ldyStone: thank You, Belliger :) amber``: please may amber have permission to ask a question of the hosts of the channel? merrie{R}: Mistress Psyche, the planet is not real, but the philosphy is, the roadmap a Master might read for living and guiding his property.. is real.... none here claimed there was such a planet... BigM^: thats a big prblem on IRC Gorean or not...the channels are made with intention to be fun and enjoyable...when you enter you not always find what you want....so leave....if only one channel can have compassion and understanding for both BDSM and Gor and also be FUN...(((FUNNNNNN))) then it will be a hoppin place Kree: Mastiff it dwindled because people left instead of answeng the hard questions swtjaane: ^5 tyki what i was trying to say is it depends on the Master much as does in D&S Gor cannot be coined nerual smiles at amber and winks KalunHail: And adolesents do not truly understand the books. Mastiff: Im here swtjaane: KalunHail do you know the facts of the books? Kree: yes mastiff and Iapplaud you |Psyche|: um...tyki....certain *Goreans* are into doing "animals" ,thats what they call their kajirae> Grins.... Kree: the others should have stayed as well.. KalunHail: Yes swtjaane, I do. Mastiff: you bet.... luscious little beasts ^Kat: they do have them BigM^ KalunHail stands beside Mastiff myria{Kk} squirms lusciously KalunHail: I am also still here. Tanith: Kree, I've done discussions like this before, and if they were being bombarded with messages, some of them personal and hostile, I don't blame them for not sticking around for it. :/ merrie{R}: Mistress Psyche, you seem angry about gor, may this girl ask why you are so angry? was not the point of this to gain understanding and acceptance of one another? swtjaane: the first was written by a prof John Norman the others by his creative writing classes all aged 18 to 25 and further the irc or puter has nothing to do with the intention lol Mastiff winks at myria Kogg: I'm still here too, though I am spending a bit of time tending the knife woulds in my back Kodius: then, again, Gorean Masters are also animals.... ^\hart exits without asking permission swtjaane: therefore each channel has has has to make its own interpretation ``Rana`` rises..... I wish ALL of you well...... BigM^: WHERE KAT please tell me myria{Kk} grins and licks her lips Mastiff: ouch...that hurt MastrLiam laughs at the "Gorian" masters. Tanith is an animal, and quite proud of it. Humanity is overrated. :) Kree: Tanith do you not think tht others see those messages and do not like them? This isnt a bed of roses and the difficult questions shold be answered Belliger: come on, Kodius, capital 'A' please <g> nerual: swtjaane.... have you ever read Imaginative Sex, also by john Norman? swtjaane: MastrLiam this girl does not laugh KalunHail: swtjaane..., Can you prove that? swtjaane: yes Master |Psyche|: oh bull they dont understand them...c'mon KalunHail....jeez, they understand as well as any "Gorean" online does...AND...frankly--that part about most goreans being older is bosk-do-do....the ones i see online---with the exception of the two that just bailed, are late teens amber``: amber was interested by the comments that people involved in bdsm consider that they live a lifestyle, instead of just practicing sexual Domination/submission, as what amber has learned so far. Are you saying that this is something you live 24/7 with your submissives? Kodius laughs Tanith: Kree, I can't say what their experiences were....but I can say that as the speaker a few weeks ago, I was literally screen flooded with crap from a random harrasser. Kogg laughs cinnamon^: MasterLiam...it's okay to agree to disagree...we all have our preferences...but please do not laugh or make fun of others... myria{Kk} laughs Mastiff: Liam... posting about fistfucking on the net... that takes some class... |Psyche| wonders how Zeb feels about Bear's Honor? Must be real honorable to bail and let your partner hold the bag.... shedevyl: yes amber Maddie: amber i think d/s can be a lifestyle Kree: Tanith I think you could handle a harrasser... speakers have to be able to do that KalunHail: Really Phyche..., How old do you think I am? BigM^: LOL PSY amber`` looks over and smiles at shedevyl ProvokeMe: amber ... it is a lifestyle as well.... you cannot just turn it on and off... at least not in my case... Rapture has REturNed Mar`Pai: Psyche Sometimes people have things to do outside of IRC Mastiff: I dont CARE how you live... really! Kodius: and how old would you think I am Psyche? swtjaane: i care bout you MasterMastiff really! Tanith: Kree, I couldn't, because my screen was literally inoperable. The ops had to deal with it. The EffNet ops, I mean. :/ ProvokeMe: you can;t be a Dominant in parts of your life and then turn it off and be submissive in other situations... Mar`Pai: And I've known Bear for a LONG time, He doesn't like to argue with people who's minds are made up. swtjaane: chuckles ProvokeMe: at least not to me swtjaane: why is everyone yelling?? tyki{KTs} smiles as she is considered a teen... Kogg: at 47, please, call me an adolescent all you like Mastiff: if you live BDSM 24/7... more power to you! Mar`Pai: yup |Psyche| is going to trot off to DalNet...anyone care to take this DISCUSSION to where Zeb and Bear can talk with Ops Authority? <they seemed a bit uncomfy in a strange channel> amber``: thank You Master ProvokeMe .. please could you tell amber, is there more to it .. than just sex? myria{Kk} squirms for yer young Master myria{Kk}: her young Master too jadedbty: Psych..they will just kick you nerual: amber, i'm going to throw my two tarsks in on that... some people in D/s and bdsm are lifestylers... and some are only bedroomgamers, tie and teasers... same with gor... some it is a lifestyle... and some it is not...(we're ignoring the definition of a "real" gorean ProvokeMe: Mar'Pai... un fortunately he never gave those with an open mind a chance to speak Tatianya: hello Mastiff: I have Ops there to Psy... Im here Tanith: And if you *don't* live BDSM 24/7, more power to you, too. Think of how tedious a place this world would be if everyone liked only the same things? ;) jadedbty: they might listen to you on Silk&steel in austnet tho psyche |Psyche|: so jade? I have been kicked outa better SleenBars....;> ProvokeMe: amber... I can only speak for myself... but sex is a small part of it for me... bina{DsL}: greetings Master :)))) Mar`Pai nods swtjaane: roflo Psyche! amber`` smiles at nerual.. thanks! kaila has a question swtjaane: ack not the sleens Mastiff: excellent point Tanith! |Xan|: People, once you realize that it takes all kinds in this world we live in then maybe you will see things change here and in r/l, and ppoeple wonder why we have hate and killings almost every minute around our globe nerual smiles back :) BigM^: ROFL Ramius`: Psy...I doubt Bear or Zeb care where they are..they will say here what they would say anywhere ldyStone: i agree with nerual...as was mentioned before there are many different levels of bdsm, from strictly bedroom play to 24/7 ProvokeMe: more important to me is the trust of the relationship.... those feelings of trust that a submissive puts in me to guide and direct her Mar`Pai: That they will |Xan|: here a girl can leave, that is their "safeword" shedevyl: they gave thier word and broke it like petulant children and lost any respect I might have had for their boasts of honor. they were to stay for an open forum after the discussion...perhaps they simply can't handle being "questioned" and are unused to it. nerual grins at ldystone scarlet`R grins to Master |Xan| amber``: Master ProvokeMe.. please excuse ambers blinding ignorance.. but what else is there but sex.. are you speaking of power exchange? Mar`Pai: But I can understand them also leaving, this isn't really neutral ground cinnamon^: People fear that which they do not know or understand. Prejudice is almost always born of ignorance, not experience. One would think is this environment of "kink", a lifestyle and practices denounced by society in general would be more accepting and open minded because we battle those same prejudices everyday. But we are all human and that means we all bring our own preferences, experiences, levels of understanding and our own fears int Mastiff: and there we differ... I need my slaves permission for nothing ProvokeMe: knowing that when she submits that she believes that I know what is best for her... and her trust that I always have the best of intentions for her Mastiff: she is property merrie{R} is still concerned at the level of anger in the room.... merrie thought this was about briging understanding.. Master Bear and Master Zeb came here of kindness to share their experience and understanding of Gor.. because they were invited.. was it really just an invitation to a lynching? |Xan|: once you realize that this isnt r/l then maybe you wil focus in more on what they hell is going on swtjaane: Mar`Pai its not if you have something to hide |Psyche|: BULL RAmius...i coulda told you BEAR would run---I've seen him do it before during a discussion---one he came into unannounced and uninvited by another channels ops..... swtjaane: but are they not warriors? Tanith: I know some heavy SM players who really are skilled with heavy edgeplay, and it can be a sport to them, and a demanding one...yet there might be no hint of dominance there. |Xan|: if one want another to treat them as meat then so be it that is their choice Mar`Pai: Me, Not at all, this is as much my home as Gor |Xan|: if they do not then that is their coice as well |Psyche| see ya in Dalnet...ppls...i really think the "discussion" should go there...;> |Xan|: none here is right and yet everyone is Tatianya: seems like i walked into a grim situation...too bad...might have been interesting Tanith: And I respect those among them who have those skills, but do not denigrate those who choose not to play at that level, and who like different things. |Xan|: isnt that what individuality is all about? |Xan|: get a grip cinnamon^: Psyche...please...deciding to walk away rather then argue with people hell bent for an altercation is not "running" kaila: I have personally witnessed a "slave" being kicked and beaten on S&S until they lie bleeding and helpless. Who treats people this way in r/l or fantasy? Something is wrong! MastrLiam admires |Psyche|'s control of her temper and the insifht of her comments. Mar`Pai: I'm not going to bother Psyche, I'm on Zeb's ignore Tanith nods. I wish folks would *listen* to the Goreans without being judgemental. Mastiff: Psyche... you are full of shit... all I have ever heard from you since he busted you for reprinting Gor books swtjaane: yur right kaila as have i Rapture: Mar'Pai you and a few others .. :) Tanith: kaila - who posed being bleeding and helpless? Eh? |Xan|: I wish everyone would listen to everyone else with out being judgemental swtjaane: but s&s changes so much its not all there Kogg: kaila, bullshit TheKttN: merri, i don't think anyone was lynched, there were many valid questions people had, that would have liked answered. BigM^: yes kalia i have aswell seen there Honor at work |Xan|: but hey, that isnt really going to happen, we all have our own minds swtjaane: no Kogg i have seen it too and i have experienced some things similiar kaila: The "Master" quoted it |Xan|: and we all have our own ideas kaila: Siad....the slave is bleeding and helpless...I dont care kaila: I have the logs MastrMars waves to all, " behave and play nice while I'm away!!!" |Xan|: but can you truly say that what you are doing is right? kaila looks at Mastiff |Psyche|: and as far as pushing your values on someone else...Bear is a joke on Austnet's Gor for the most part...he changes his channel topic regularily---almost daily to put crap out there about other ppls lifestyles...want CAPTURES of it? |Psyche|: see yas..... Maddie: Tanith i think all here should listen with out being judgmental |Xan|: what is right? |Xan|: isnt killing wronge? Cats^kitN: well...HI Maddie! cinnamon^: kaila....ummm.....on irc no on e is bleeding or helpless...everyone has the ability and right to walk away, leave the channel, turn off the computer |Xan|: but if you kill someone out of self deffence doesn that make it right? bina{DsL} groans, holding her head..trying not to die from scroll shock MastrLiam: These "masters" are fakes with their own agenda which has nothing to do with why they were advertised to be here. I hope that I have offended them as much as they have offended me. Rapture: Psyche Bear defame someone? Tanith: Some people practice heavy, harsh SM. If you do not want to play with them, leave and don't play. |Xan|: really poeple, there is far much more to life that this bullshit argument kaila: Tanith, it goes beyond that. Tanith: MastrLiam, I am kind of curious to know what they are faking? |Xan|: everyone is an asshole and all are saints ProvokeMe: cinnamon... if one belives and lives that lifestyle.. whether here online or in r/l... the emotional devastation can be just as great shedevyl: Bear was basing so many of His responses on extreme misinformation about D/s and BDSM in general...His premise and platform for many of His responses was causing a problem with credibility. |Xan|: so what if some are just better at one than the other shedevyl: no wonder He ran. BigM^: Busted for printing Gor books?...last time i checked the internet was not policed by you...it is open for people to do as they wish within reason |Xan|: that is just life Tanith: I think some Goreans do have serious misconceptions about the BDSM community, yes. RivalKeep: There is something wrong with living the Gorean lifestyle in rl? |Xan|: I have no conception about the BDSM community MastrLiam: Good night, all. you all have your choices; however, do not make them under such patently false pretenses. mounds: a girl has seen both.... there are good and bad Masters and good and bad slaves EVERYWHERE--it isn't limited to Gor or D/s.. Tanith: I also think some BDSM community folks have serious misconceptions about Goreans. That sword cuts both ways. |Xan|: live and let live eh cinnamon^: ProvokeMe, Sir...i didn't say the emotions aren't real...but there is not physical bleeding or helplessness here...everyone...EVERYONE can turn off their computer nerual: swtjaane and kaila....... a comment on the beating of slaves in s&s, assuming an op was present at the aforementioned beating.... if a slave girl truly has Gor in her heart, she will not behave in a way to elicit that treatment.... such treatment is usually reserved for hng's entering the channel looking for a quick cyberfuck TheKttN: no RivalKeep, we just wanted to hear how it was done Mastiff: sure... he simply NOTED the copywrite infringement... hence her hatred |Xan|: do not group us all into one barrle Tanith: MastrLiam, I am listening to your reasons? Mastiff: I couldnt give a tinkers damn kaila: I dont see anything wrong with it, as long as they are up front with those they invite into the lifestyle with them. ProvokeMe: yes they can cin... but turning off the computer doesn't relieve the hurt nerual applauds cinnamon |Xan|: granted we might be a bit arogant *Cats^kitN* yes |Xan|: but isnt everyone bina{DsL} curls up near Master RivalKeep watching the arguments with a heavy heart Mastiff: I am arrogant... Im an asshole Mastiff: I dont care if you like me or not |Xan|: here here Mastiff Mar`Pai: Join the Club Mastiff merrie{R} waves goodbye to her friends, Masters..this slave girl wishes you well..... *** TheMaSTeR has set the topic on channel #Submission_Discuss to After Party on #submission Open Bar ALL NIGHT!!! BigM^: LOL Mastiff merrie{R}: serve well sisters kaila: nerual: it was a beating to a slave that is Gor...it was pretty disgusting. KalunHail: Your Gorean Mastiff |Xan|: as you should be and that is what is so grand about life period cinnamon^: MasterLiam...i am interested to know how You determine who is "real" and who is "fake" and who gave You the authority to decide for others who and what they are? KalunHail grins Tanith: ProvokeMe, there is child porn on the Net. I hate it. I don't want to look at it. It would hurt me if I looked; one of my best friends was molested, and it sucks. So I don't go looking for it. Ramius` agrees with Mastiff Rapture: "just because someone says something is 'fact' does not mean it is such" this seems to apply universally swtjaane: neural on one occasion i was asked to serve there when the serve was completed the Master went on to explain kicking and breaking my ribs in message he said was because he liked me apologized and asked me to return when i did it became more extreme and he followed me around to other channels all night professing his love lol myria{Kk}: Master ProvokeMe, Gor isn't for everyone, it isn't an easy path. Some people don't like it, some do. RivalKeep nods at Tanith nerual: kaila... i don't understand what you are saying? a beating to a slave that is Gor? a beating of a gorean slave girl, in other words? Tanith: There is a lot of emotion provoking material out there on the Net, including Gorean slavery, and if you don't want it to affect you emotionally, you need not to go there. |Xan|: this is just life rascism ProvokeMe: <sigh> I guess no one likes to read all the comments... just the ones they want |Xan|: get over it and find something real to complain and bitch about ProvokeMe: I'll stop talking now kaila: yes, neral, a beating to a gorean slave girl...because they wanted to Tanith: swtjaane, I have participated in some intense (but safe) edgeplay scenes both in reality and occasionally in cyber. Do you believe edgeplay is wrong? |Xan|: no shit eh ProvokeME Rapture: kaila.. who did this? valary: Master Kodius, may valary please leave this channel? :) |Xan|: my point exactly swtjaane: i was shocked by it cinnamon^: It's very simple...all of us only need decide what is right for ourselves...to admit and accept who and what we are and to allow others to make their own choices for themselves...anything else is arrogance and ignorance Mar`Pai: Sounds like you could use my IRC Safety course Kodius: you may go valary.....be well kajira swtjaane: i am into philospophys rather than phisical acts valary: thank you Master :) * bina{DsL}: be well valary :) nerual: swtjaane... lol, like anywhere else, there are a lot of messed up people... unfortunately they seem to flock to the internet... swtjaane: and seemed wrong to just assume to do that Ramius`: be well valary Tatianya shakes her head....and wonders about fantasy and reality..hahahahahaha valary: be well, everyone and have a good evening :) * RivalKeep much prefers being Gorean in rl... just as His slave does... |Xan|: wha t is most sad about this discussion is that when everyone leaves I can guarentee that nothing will have been accomplished swtjaane: yeah nerual i said earlier it seems to me that there is no real control anymore on s&s where there used to be Mastiff: COULD I beat my slave r/l for no reason? yes.... do I? no... but its my choice nerual: kaila... the philosophy written in the novels is that a slave is a Master's property to do with as He wishes... if a girl doesn't wish this treatmentm she should not be a prt of Gor shedevyl: I disagree nerual the internet is just a microcosm...and probably actually a more affluent one in that they have the luxury of time and access to computers. Mastiff nods to Xan Kodius: depends on who is there at the time swtjaane |Xan|: most will still want to trash the other Kogg: gee, maybe this is real, and the rest of that shit out there is fantasy Mastiff: dont know why they bother Tanith: Don't forget that Gor has magic healing serums, anti-aging potions, spaceships, Priest-Kings and best of all, no venereal disease. :) KalunHail: Agreed Xan |Xan|: FUCK PEOPLE swtjaane: some beatings on Gor are for other things and symbolic you have to understand that nerual nods at shedevyl... grinning.. for sanity' BigM^: well for people who don't want slave beating but would enjoy some gorean BDsm fun...without the turning a fantasy novel into rl .....keep looking the channels are bound to show up where we can have fun without alot of Honor bound BS....ever wonder why Bears version of honor sounds the same as Mister Worfs...LOL swtjaane: some are very sensual not meant as abuse kaila: nerual: Im referring to beyond beating, to injury. That isn't right, nor shoudl anyone in their right mind choose to injury someone like that and laugh. Fantasy or not. nerual: s sake i like to pretend that there aren't as many jerks out there as there are on here |Xan|: kaila swtjaane: just its sad how s&s is now Gene_: On Gor slavery may be an acceptable social institution, but generally it is not here on Earth. Slavery as it exists on Gor is for the kajira a sexual matter, women are enslaved because they are desirable. Unfortunately, there is not a Gor.Slavery on cyberGor is also a sexual preference, it is not an institution. These girls make the choice to explore their feelings, they may or may not ever discover the slave in themselves. I b Gene_: BDSM lifestylers have a better chance of finding their true nature as master or slave since they practice in real life what is described in the books. How can a slave find their true nature without a master they can see and feel? There is nothing like having a naked, squirming slave licking at your feet to make you feel alive. The relationship with my slave is consensual, but on my terms. She does not have to wear my collar, bu swtjaane: but i guess that is not bout Gor Gene_: There are no 'safe words' and no limits. I do with her what I please and expect complete Gene_: obedience to my commands. We have found our true nature. This is not play or 'sceneing' for us, this who we are. Gene_: On Gor slavery may be an acceptable social institution, but generally it is not here on Earth. Slavery as it exists on Gor is for the kajira a sexual matter, women are enslaved because they are desirable. Unfortunately, there is not a Gor.Slavery on cyberGor is also a sexual preference, it is not an institution. These girls make the choice to explore their feelings, they may or may not ever discover the slave in themselves. I b |Xan|: one can easily leave the channel here on irc if they do not like to be beat |Xan|: plain and simple Gene_: are no 'safe words' and no limits. I do with her what I please and expect complete Gene_: obedience to my commands. We have found our true nature. This is not play or 'sceneing' for us, this who we are. mounds thinks this sounds like her middle school students arguing over whether Pepsi or Coke is better... sheesh!!!! let everyone have an opinion Tanith: kaila: I guess you better condemn me right now, since I have played "cybersnuff" games on FurryMuck of predator and prey, and in cyber, we go *way* beyond what would be safe in RL. kaila: I would like to know the name of a Gor channel that is discussion based and not a play channel. Can anyone give me the name of one? BigM^: see you all later....bye |Xan|: but dont you find it a bit odd that they dont? |Xan|: maybe that should tell you something nerual: kaila, again, i say that there are the extremists.... most Gorean
Masters who truly follow the books wouldn't want to injure their slave
girl for any reason
|
amber``: kaila.. it is Silk&Steel on austnet
|Xan|: they want to be there
|Xan|: and to be as they are
Mastiff: thanks Gene... I got all none of that
|Xan|: just as you do
swtjaane: kaila #GoreanTavern has a pen for slaves to talk
amber``: Master Bear runs it.. it is a good channel..
swtjaane: that is Dal
kaila: amber, there is no play there??? no serving?
Gene_: Gor did lead me to these truths, but not all people travel the same paths
Gene_: to reach the same destination. There are men who will dare to be men and women who will dare to be women, but they may never hear of Gor.
amber``: no kaila.. none!!
Tanith: Gene, the "safety" built into the Gorean system is that the Master is a responsible and honorable fellow who has control of himself and who does not kill or injure slave girls for no reason. Theoretically.
amber``: and GoreanTavern.. amber wouldnt let her dog do in for water!!
shedevyl: #Silk&Steel on Austnet kaila...run by Bear-
nerual smiles at amber :)
|Xan|: everyone here plays kaila
kaila: alright...and I dont have to kneel?? I can just ask intelligent questions and be answered?
Kodius: fair you all well
mounds: yes, and the slaves on #goreanslavepen backstab Masters... how nasty
swtjaane: why amber?
Rapture: silk&steel on dalnet also.
bina{DsL}: bina wishes You well Master Kodius
amber``: yes kaila.. absolutely
Mastiff: why injure my property? I wouldnt smash my car on pupose either
Tanith: Theoretically, because any teenager wankoid can call himself a Gorean Master whether he is one or not.
|Xan|: in one way or another
RivalKeep nods ot Mastiff
amber``: S&S on dalnet is different.. serving, roleplaying.. not discussion.
nerual smiles at Mastiff
|Xan|: grunts
shedevyl: not sure...went there and didn't stay long enough to kneel...they were bashing some Master for jacking off in channel.
RivalKeep: Tanith and anyone can call themself a Master at all too....
Kree: LOL shedevyl
Tanith nods.
Maddie: mounds ahh come on, in any channel you will find people who are not nice
Tanith: "I'm a TRUE Master - I've read ALL the Gor novels." ;)
Tatianya: that's true Maddie..:)
swtjaane: Mastiff i think its that Gor opens itself to invite the extreme nuts i tried to express earlier when speaking with Bear was not aga inst Gor or him
bina{DsL}: in 5 years as a gorean slave..living with a Master..bina has never been abused or mistreated..sure..its rough sometimes..but on the whole..Masters do not abuse their slaves..they care for them..as you would care for any property..a damaged slave is of no use.
Rapture rises and makes his leave... be well
|Xan|: laughs at Tanith
KalunHail: Or a Dom..., But that does not make them so..
juielle wonders if a certificate comes with reading all the novels.
shedevyl: does your Master use a five bladed whip on you bina?
nerual rises to her feet and pads to the door, stretching, ... pondering... the problem is in interpretation... some see what happens on Gor, an get outraged because they view it through the eyes of real life....
|Xan|: damn tdoes that not make me one then Tanith ;)
tyki{KTs}: #ship-of-acquisition on dal does roleplay...but we are always glad to get a discussion going and share what we have found in Gor
swtjaane: smacks juielle with a wet trout!@
swtjaane: chuckle
mounds: exactly, Maddie.... and let each enjoy His/her own
shedevyl: enquiring minds want to know :)
Tanith: I agree, swtjaane. I have seen beauty and honor in the Gorean lifestyle....and I have seen wankazoids and losers and wannabes flocking there as well, wanting the benefits without paying the price of honor.
juielle giggles
^jams agrees with bina
bina{DsL}: shedevyl: actually..its a leather flogger..lol. or sometimes a paddle..or a crop..or..well..you get the idea.
Cats^kitN: sounds like life Tanith
swtjaane: Tanith i have not seen much honor in s&s
Mastiff: And jenny jones does stories that make all BDSM people look like killer fuckheads, too... its all in the perspective
Tatianya: is there a price of honor in slaves?
kaila: So none of gor is real, nerual??? Im confused now!
swtjaane: yet i have seen it in Gor
RivalKeep: shedevyl, I do not.. I use flogers, paddles, riding crops, etc..
|Xan|: here here Tanith, and it is like that the world over in all channles
shedevyl hopes so :)
bina{DsL} winks at her Master
nerual: disregarding the large number of headcases, Gor as seen on irc is not the same as Gor in real life...
Tanith: Tatiyana: In a sense, yes - to live up to the collar and not to act out to get punished and put your needs in front of your Master's.
swtjaane: no kaila there is no planet named Gor but its a philosophy
Kree: Nerual thst is the wisest comment all night
bina{DsL} nods in agreement with nerual
nerual: there is a difference in Gor in real life and what you see on irc, kaila... there has to be...
swtjaane: and differs from channel to channel from couple to
couple to some degrees
<Kree> Nerual thst is the wisest comment all night
bina{DsL} nods in agreement with nerual
<nerual> there is a difference in Gor in real life and what you see on irc, kaila... there has to be...
<swtjaane> and differs from channel to channel from couple to couple to some degrees
<kaila> Are there Gor clubs in the real world one can go to observe??
<swtjaane> come to the jersey party kaila i will be doing Gorean serves
<Tatianya> thank you Tanith
nerual blushest a deep rosy 4red thank you Master
<Mar`Pai> Not that I know of
<bina{DsL}> kaila: as far as this one knows..there arent..atleast not in this area. though we do have our own orginizations..and get togethers.
<kaila> nerual, I keep hoping!
<Tanith> I know a number of folks in the San Francisco Bay area who live Gorean type lifestyles.
<|Xan|> Dream well poeple and maybe now you know why the world is in such a hell hole that it is in, but I doubt alot here has that brain capasity to be so true to them selves
<Tanith> Some to greater extents than others.
<Belliger> by no means all would-be Masters stick around on irc Gor.. kaila's Master would not command an enormous amount of respect there IMO..
<^jams> kaila..there is one group in seattle that leans more to the Gor side..one girl is even branded with the gorean kef
<kaila> Does it spill over into their work lives etc???
<RivalKeep> sadly, I have not seen many clubs because even among BDSM groups Goreans must almost hide to keep from getting lynched.... (sigh)
<Rapture> Tanith.. your in the bayarea?
nerual can offer at least 4 sane goreans in the Philly area
Tanith nods. Berkeley area.
<Rapture> nod.
<swtjaane> we have a party tomorrow night people!!!!
<swtjaane> geez
bina{DsL} grins at nerual and offers to trade the 4 sane goreans in philly for 5 in florida :)
<dumm> REALLY?
<Kree> Tabith that is because many consider that area another planet anyway LOL LOL
<dumm> I WANT TO JOIIIIIIIIIIIN!!!!!!
<kaila> wish I was near you jaane ;)
nerual laughs ;):):):)
<shedevyl> Well if you just have a Master/slave relationship and do what you want to do...without calling it Gorean...what's the difference?
<swtjaane> well come!!! lol
<Tanith> BTW, branding as they describe it in the Gorean novels only makes a mess, doesn't work.
<dumm> ????????
<Mastiff> I have gotten together with many Goreans... I dont know if I want to be in a ROOMFUL
<bina{DsL}> no, branding rl is easiest with small pieces of metal..several strikes to create the brand.
<Maddie> Tanith that is very ture
Kree has kicked dumm from #submission_discuss (Kree)
Kree sets mode: +b *!*@dyn252ppp221.pacific.net.sg
<swtjaane> rofl Mastiff i nice!
<KalunHail> So True Mastiff....
<nerual> a comment on how to interpret the gorean novels in real life.... Read Imaginative Sex....
juielle waves to Master Kree from afar.
<Mastiff> I agree Tanith... I dont fly a tarn, either
<Kree> hey juielllle
tyki{KTs} agrees with nerual
nerual grins...
<Tanith> shedevyl: With all respect to those who have chosen a Gorean lifestyle, there is no *need* to base your Mastery or slavery on some science fiction novels if you don't feel they resonate with you.
<kaila> is that still in print nerual?
<tyki{KTs}> a great deal of insight in Imaginative Sex
<nerual> read it and THEN decide how you want to love gor
<bina{DsL}> its in reprint kaila
<nerual> kaila, it was re-released last August, I believe
<kaila> alright
<Kogg> I dont think us Goreans are permitted to gather in groups of more than three by federal statute
juielle smiles
<nerual> in any case... i have it sitting next to my bed ;)
bina{DsL} giggles!
<Mastiff> yeah... Gorean males... booze... and half naked women. Thats a scary cocktail mix
<shedevyl> that's what I figure Tanith
<KalunHail> It is in Print
Ramius` laughs at Kogg
<swtjaane> Kogg ya better be i have a lot of food!
<KalunHail> You can order it from ant store.
<nerual> only half naked women, Master Mastiff?
<tyki{KTs}> well...there will be a Gorean picnic near Buffalo over the 4th of July
<kaila> That brings up another question for me, Mastiff!! Does Gor actually promote alcohol and bdsm??? or does it just appear that way?
<swtjaane> i have white silks in real life i made em and i love em!
<Tanith> There is a compelling philosophy described in the novels that goes beyond pretending there is such a thing as tarns or tospits or paga or Priest Kings. Me, I feel uncomfy wi th the pretending part and find it hard to roleplay.
<Kogg> hmmm, half naked??? got to train you better
mounds giggles
Suthrnldy is now known as sassysub
<Mastiff> dont know... I promote nothing
<swtjaane> oh come on its the only time i get to go without my bra plus i work out
<Tanith> kaila, Gor is not BDSM or recreational whipping.
Mastiff grins
<RivalKeep> kaila, I have never "played" after drinking anything that would affect My judgement... Nor will I ever... do other areas of the 'Scene" teach this?
<Kree> message me amber if you like
<Mastiff> Kogg, you asshole
<swtjaane> ack Tanith i like my recreational whipping!
<amber``> thank You Master Kree
<kaila> I was wondering because the serving of wines and beer, etc.....then the play as they "master" quotes that he is drunken. Doesnt seem very wisse or safe for anyone.
<Mastiff> I dont "play"
<Kogg> why thanks Mastiff, you flatterer
nerual nods... the basic creedo Anywhere is safe, sane, and consensual... which cannot exist if drugs/alcohol has been consumed
<Tanith> I think that if a DS couple wanted to live their normal DS lifestyle, and had sex, alcohol wouldn't be a major problem. I mean, do you expect them to abstain for life?
<kaila> Rival, none that I know of!
<RivalKeep> "played" = a BDSM Scene
<Gene_> that is a major diffirence as goreans we do not scene
<kaila> I would never attend a party where alcohol was being served myself.
<Maddie> Tanith no, but many do not play when they have been drinking
<Mastiff> again... I dont Go anywhere and PLAY
<Tanith> However, I swear to you that if I was planning to pierce and then fist somebody, I would not touch one blessed drop.
<Maddie> ahhh agree Tanith
<swtjaane> is worried that Kogg and Mastiff are flirting will get involved and we will be short 2 Masters and we dont have many now! thank you
<Cats^kitN> and not all D/s couples scene....
<Mastiff> I live here, in my home, with my slave.... and sometimes visit other Goreans
Tanith nods at Gene. Gor isn't *about* BDSM playing. BDSM playing is something different.
<Mastiff> nah... hes too big an asshole
<swtjaane> i do Gorean serves at home
<kaila> Tanith, it was for lack of a better term.
bina{DsL} nods in agreement..but..the two are not totally seperate..some goreans do indulge in bdsm play on occasion.
<swtjaane> its pretty
<Tanith> kaila, I host BDSM dinner parties and serve tasting pours of fine wines, but nobody gets drunk and plays.
<KalunHail> Is or has Mastiff?
Tanith won't serve Coke with the braised pheasant with truffles and endives, get the drift?
<Mastiff> is... never actually checked
kaila nods
<swtjaane> no Tanith i mean with the tray and kneeling like that
<Rapture> Tanith that would be a tad tacky..
KalunHail laughs
Tanith nods at bina.
<Gene_> if I whip my slave it is because she needs to be punished or she needs to be reminded of her place
<swtjaane> or just for fun! lol
<Tanith> Gene, what you are describing is DS, training and maintaining a slave in slavery. It really is a whole different critter from S&M playing.
<Mastiff> It isnt fun for me to whip... therefore... there is no whipping for fun at my house
<swtjaane> <---is not going to Mastiffs house
<tyki{KTs}> and the sting of knowing she has displeased her Master...goes much deeper than the sting of the whip
<swtjaane> chuckle
<swtjaane> yes tyki its emotional
<Tanith> And of course some people like both things, and that's okay. And some people like only one. The only problem is when a mismatch happens, or when a Holier Than Thou war starts.
<bina{DsL}> true tyki
sassysub is now known as Suthrnldy
<Mastiff> didnt ask you over... but a slave entering for the first time is whipped
vanea smiles
<Gene_> that is what we have here
<swtjaane> oh perk what can i bring??
<kaila> D/s is very different from S&M...there may or may not be submission involved with s&m only, or domination
<swtjaane> chuckle
<Tanith> Heavy SM edgeplayers are not better than people like Gene who only whip for discipline. Neither do I believe Gene's way is better than that of the SM edgeplayers.
<swtjaane> i think we are all nuts! but fun!!
<nerual> the problem many have in bringing gor into rl is acknowledging the limits that must be decided upon by both Master AND slave.... some like to pretend they don't exist... but in the society we live in, they have too.
<|Psyche|> re-Tals all...greets slaves/subs.....:>
<shedevyl> but..but..I thought the more pain I could take the more slave I was...*sniff*
bina{DsL} blinks as her Master disappears
<Mastiff> I dont care what other people do... as long as it doesnt affect me
<kaila> nerual: amen!
kaila grins
<Tanith> nerual, with trust given over time, limits are set by the owner, not the slave.
<Mastiff> nor do I care what you think of my lifestyle
<Tanith> But that trust is crucial.
<swtjaane> i like your life style Mastiff
<Kogg> myria{Kk}, are you wearing my collar
shedevyl isn't about to arrive at anyone's door rl saying "here have 100 percent of my power" I am slave.
<myria{Kk}> yes, my Master
<Mastiff> then dont...
<Kogg> do you wear it in r/l
<shedevyl> it's a process over time.
nerual nods slowly.... Master Tanith.. this girl agrees.... over a large amount of time...
<myria{Kk}> yes, my Master
shedevyl grins okay thanks
<Tanith> shedevyl, that would be as silly as getting married when you arrive at someone's door.
<Kree> WHAT shedevyl?
<swtjaane> ah chit shedevyl! rofl
<Kree> grrrrrrrrrrrr
Tanith looks down at herself. Um, not wearing that toy tonight, nerual. ;)
<Kree> there goes all my hopes
<Mastiff> be as silly as getting married PERIOD
<Thor-> I've watched this evening's proceedings silently, because I came here to learn. When one stops learning, they stop living. I try to keep an open mind to others customs, beliefs, and lifestyles. Perhaps it's because I have not had much exposure to the
^jams has to run...i wish all well and will be back soon :)
nerual nods at shedevyl
<nerual> Oops :) sorry Mistress :)
<swtjaane> Mastiff i am not coming over if you dont marry me!
<shedevyl> welll...might make an exception with a little booze.
Tanith is nobody's Master, nobody's Mistress, nobody's slave here...just a friendly BDSM community person.
nerual g rins :)
<Thor-> Gorean ways and beliefs that I did not come into the channel this evening with any preconceived notions, or prejudices.
<Kogg> hehe, I'll perform the ceremony for ya Mastiff
<|Psyche|> that is very true, neural...limits must exist, and those who say they dont...prolly have difficulty with reality, IMHO
<|Psyche|> LOL Tanith!!
<|Psyche|> Tsk tsk tsk, Mastiff---down on marriage are we?
<swtjaane> i am tellin ya i cook good!
<Mastiff> you better have chains for ME, because I wont hang around!
<Thor-> I was truly interesed in seeing what was to be said. Unfortunately, I'm coming away with more questions than ans wers.
<|Psyche|> oh kewl...someone is getting married online, Kogg? or collared <one and the same, essentially EG>
<swtjaane> yes you will <w>
<Tanith> As I understand it, the Gorean ideal is that all men with honor will use slaves with honor, and treat them according to their strict but essentially fair codes.
<Mastiff> no, marriage is a worthless institution, in my opinion
<Tanith> The problem is that any teenage wankazoid can walk into a Gorean channel and play Master.
<swtjaane> ok wanna jus shack up?
<Kree> Tanith there are as many Gorean codes and ideals as there are Goreans
Belliger rises.. be well, all
<bina{DsL}> may bina please depart?
Tanith nods at Kree. I am no expert by any means, still just learning.
<KalunHail> Yes bina
<Kogg> go bina
<bina{DsL}> thank You Masters, bina wishes You well
<Gene_> g'nite all
<Kree> just as in BDSM there are not manyrule that all follow
<Mastiff> how well do you beg, jaane?
<Gene_> be well
bina{DsL} dashes out, returning to dalnet
Tanith chuckles. Except there are no books in the BDSM community we all agree on.
<Thor-> I find it disturbing, and difficult to understand the animosity that flows between the two styles represented here, when we all have our own ways.
<Kree> ^5 Tanith
<nerual> Tanith, not even Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns?
<|Psyche|> Thor...gor is alot like BDSM in general..you have to find your own path...um....those here tonight arent represnative of all Gor---just as you arent representative of all BDSM
<|Psyche|> YUPPERS Tanith...that was my comment before--many that I see online ar eteenagers or very young "adults"
nerual winks
Tanith nods at Thor. I am *not* Gorean, but I appreciate the chance to visit and learn.
<Kogg> damn, score one for Gor..we got books
<shedevyl> It is my opinion that the only things that you can be taught about D/s are equipment, techniques and safety. Everything else is a spirit that must be *caught* and is for the people involved to define for themselves. There is no right or wrong way to do or be into D/s. It is too subjective. The most important thing is to know your needs. And to know that Mastery of another requires some mastery of Self.
<swtjaane> moves across the floor to the Master her green eyes lowered her long mahogany curls cascading and flows delicately to her knees rising her hands wrists crossed she waits before Him in nadu
<Tanith> nerual, I disagreed with many parts of that book, though as a whole it is very good.
<swtjaane> she whispers lasange ok Master?
Tanith agrees with shedevyl.
<tyki{KTs}> tyki holds no animosity towards BDSM...she only finds that she prefers what she has found in the Gorean community
<Thor-> There was a question asked of someone earlier "Can you truly say your way is right ?" and it was asked in a derisive manner. Truly, I -can- say my way is right......it is right -for me-. I don't begrudge or belittle someone else's way, for that is
<Tanith> tyki, I am sorry you saw such bad manners (masochists provoking dominants in bad-faith negotiations to be submissive). Really, I'd consider that awful and rude as well, unacceptable behavior.
Tanith nods at Thor.
<Thor-> that is -their- way, not mine, nor is it mine to judge.
<Mastiff> I dont care what you do...as long as it doenst affect me
<cinnAFK> well said, Thor, Sir
<|Psyche|> Thor.....in my experience, the animosity is between the "styles" because Gor---to the more vocal of its representatives---dont consider it BDSM--they are almost religious in their fervor---but you can never get them to tell you exactly waht "Gor" is that is so different
<Tanith> I think the only *wrong* way is if you are dishonest and negotiate in bad faith, pretending you can live up to expectations that you can't.
<mounds> Thank You, Master Thor... well said
<BigM^> Gor is just a flavour of BDsm.
<Tanith> Now, I'm not Gorean, but I strongly disagree that Gor is only a flavor of BDSM.
<Kogg> well, Psyche, you seem to have a religious Antigor fervor of your own
<Mastiff> hear hear!
<Ramius`> Gor is not a flavor of BDSM
<Thor-> Mastiff - not at all my view....as I said....I came here hoping to gain insight this evening. I -do- care to learn about other people's lifestyles, but that is not to say I intend to adopt it, only understand it. (Or try to)
<tyki{KTs}> it could just be that tyki found a Master who has helped her grow and get to know herself better in the time she has worn his collar
<KalunHail> That truly is a very hard one to swallow..., Gos is not a subset of BDSM.
<Tanith> BDSM is focused on the exchange of power and sensation and trust between two or more people in a relationship or a scene. Gor is focused on a lifestyle. There are BDSM lifestyles as well, but they don't tend to focus as much on non-BDSM things.
<mounds> Masters, may this girl please be dismissed?
<Rapture> go mounds
<myria{Kk}> Mistress Psyche, to this girl Gor is the ultimate in the Dominance and submission
<Kogg> go mounds
cinnAFK agrees Gor is not a flavor of BDSM...it is a seperate philosophy that doesn't even necessarily include D/s or BDSM overtones or activities
<shedevyl> I suspect most Gorean found their Master/Dom selves or their slave/subs selves through Gor and are intoxicated with the self discovery and will foever see it through Gorean eyes...with little true understanding of D/s, BDSM.
<Rapture> ..and be well
<vanea> as Master Bear said..one can be Gorean without owning a slave..without being a Master...its a lifestyle...
<Mastiff> Thor, I suggest you just come and visit... as long as people dont act the fool they are welcome
<myria{Kk}> and that Gor and BDSM are merely flavors of the D/s world
<mounds> Thank You, Master Kogg...
<shedevyl> a girl wishes all well this night.
<mounds> a girl wishes everyone well and backs her wiggly ass out the door.
<Kree> vanea I do not currently have a submissive, but few would challenge that I am a Dominant
juielle waves to Master Thor
nerual slides out the door, thank you all for an interesting discussion ;)
<Tanith> A BDSM lifestyle is unlikely to help you deal with office politics, life choices, emergency situations or spiritual paths.
<swtjaane> after having been in Gor i sometimes find D&S lacking in the poetry in a Gorean serve i truly trance and its pure beauty there is something for me now lacking in D&S
<Cats^kitN> and with or without a Master i am still a submissive
<Kree> jaaaane if it is lacking then you have had the wrong D/s partners
<Tanith> It will definitely help you deal with your BDSM relationship with your partner, scening, safety, etc, but the rest of your philosophy and choices are not influenced.
<swtjaane> no Kree it is that Gor adds another demension
<|Psyche|> Each Day--go to austnet and see what crap Silk&Steel there puts in their Topic--they <Bear> has put in crap about mainstream BDSM on a regular basis---kinda hard to get the respect of the BDSM community when you pull that
<|Psyche|> not at all Kogg....
<|Psyche|> I dont think that two persons of what Gor is and what it isnt is exactly a way to teach pls..and one of them barely finished the Question/answer period before bailing out of here...
<swtjaane> i ts deeper
<|Psyche|> oh..well said shedevyl!!! it may also explain why most goreans hate switches....
<Tanith> Psyche, last I checked, they were pointing out the differences between BDSM and Gor. There are plenty.
<cinnAFK> jaane, when serving...be it in a gorean tavern or in D/s....it has to come from the heart...be almost as if giving your heart voice....it's not the environment in which it's expressed
<KalunHail> THe point that seems to be missing is that in THe D/s world..., people can switch roles..., That is not at all so on The Gorean Ethos.
<Kree> jaane my point is that the rituals of Gor CAN be brought into a D/s relationship
<Mastiff> Oh Psyche, get over it.... Your hatred for Bear is showing
<swtjaane> yes Kree that is what i am saying lol!
<swtjaane> Kree you wanna get married? Mastiff cant now
<Kree> LOL LOL
<Tanith> And that is why I can never be Gorean in truth - I *am* a switch, that much is real and deep and primal in me, and there is no way I could deny who I am and what I feel.
<swtjaane> Tanith on Gor you would be a Free Woman
<KalunHail> That is your choice Tanith.
<Tanith> I don't believe anyone hates me in S&S, and I do visit once in awhile as a Free Woman.
<kaila> But could she sometimes serve, and sometimes not?
<Tanith> Kalun: no, it is not a choice for me, any more than being lesbian or gay is a choice.
<swtjaane> i have served as a free woman its different but i have done it
<Maddie> hmm, but can't a freewoman in a way be a slave to her free companion?
<KalunHail> Just as living the Gorean lifestyle is for me.
<swtjaane> yes Maddie
<Thor-> I'm back....had to scroll back and read comments.
Tanith nods at Kalun. People have different hearts and different paths.
<Maddie> so is that not switching in a manner?
<Rapture> Tanith .. that is for sure.
<swtjaane> yes just experessed differently
<kaila> Do they hold a lesser place in Gor, or is it of equal standing to a Master?
<Thor-> Good eveing, juielle. Good to see you again, if you are still here. :)
<KalunHail> What do you Mean MAddie?
juielle smiles
<swtjaane> kaila Free Woman are considered higher than slaves but its odd
<juielle> been a while Master Thor, but juielle still lives and breathes, much to the dismay of some.
<Tanith> I know what it is not to have a choice, and I work a lot with the transgender community....I know from firsthand experience and knowledge that your sexuality and gender is not always your choice.
<swtjaane> i was a Free companion and asked my Master to make me a slave
<|Psyche|> again, no argument there, Tanith....
<|Psyche|> um.....KalunHail---it isnt that way in Virtual Gor, but, in the books, many males were slaves then free--as were females...a point most seem to forget....
<|Psyche|> not hatred, Mastiff--pity for Bear...he could have stayed, but, yet again, he bailed...even my going to Dalnet and asking him to return, did not good---couldnt even shame him into it
<kaila> But are they at the same level as a Master, or still lower?
<|Psyche|> that is up to the FW and her FreeCompanion, Maddie....
<|Psyche|> what exactly *is* the Gorean Lifestyle, KalunHail?
<Kogg> Just as I dont try to be a Master, I am only who I am...and everybody else refers to me as a Master. And that is perhaps another key to a Gorean
<|Psyche|> naw, Maddie...some of these guys get all antsy when they see your nick in Caps then in lowercase..odd, that the demeanor of a person doesnt count as much as their spelling in gor
<Maddie> someone forget already, old brain said you can not switch in gor, but i think it depends on how you view yourself and how you relate to other ppl
<Mastiff> right right... Ive heard you too many times
<swtjaane> no kaila a Free Woman is much the same as the Masters equals
<swtjaane> and they marry
<Thor-> It's always a pleasure to see you, juielle. :)
<swtjaane> so like our marriages
<swtjaane> cept Mastiff wont marry me pout!
juielle smiles and curls back up
<Mastiff> not a chance
<kaila> Kogg, would you be offended then if you were not addressed as the Master title?
Tanith does not believe in messing with normal English grammar and spelling to display your sexual choices to strangers, personally.
<swtjaane> geeez
<Kogg> of course
<swtjaane> does the Master like mexican food better??
<swtjaane> <w>
<|Psyche|> ----> KalunHail, again...what is the Gorean Lifestyle taht you live? Istn that what the discussion was supposed to address, yet, didnt?
<Tanith> What I do in the dungeon or the bedroom is my own biz, and I do not need to flag it to casual strangers on IRC.
<Kree> ^5 Tanith
<KalunHail> Psyche..., In the books, Norman was showing how Tarl found himself..., by way of that. In the later books he remained free.
<swtjaane> who is flagging?
<kaila> So it's more something you expect even though you make no strides to be a Master? Or are you saying you just are one, period? *just clarifying for myself*
<swtjaane> period kaila
<Kree> Norman only wrote the first 6 books
<swtjaane> that is Gor
<Mastiff> I KNOW I learn more daily....
<KalunHail> I'm a slow typist Psyche
<Mastiff> bullshit, Kree
<Tanith> swtjaane: Sorry, it's a San Francisco term that is derived from the hanky code custom, meaning you make clear to everyone who sees you whether you are dom or sub, straight or gay.
<|Psyche|> yeah Tanith! But....your personality is that of a Dominant essentially---whether you switch occassionally or not....
<Kogg> I have been Gorean all my life, I just didnt know it until a couple years ago
<Kree> Mastiff there is a different style to the other books and I read them when they were first written
<Tanith> Psyche: My personality is what it is, and I suspect you can't easily label it by watching me for an hour on IRC. ;)
<swtjaane> i am proud of what i am dont hide it but i guess i dont "flag" either lol
<Thor-> Mastiff - I may take your suggestion, and visit some time. I -do- hope that visits from those wishing to gain insight and understanding are welcome. There were many questions, both spoken and unspoken this evening, that were left unanswered.
<KalunHail> Norman Wrote all of them Kree. Including 26 and 27 which are printed in England.
<Tanith> Thor: I have found it so, when I went respectfully to ask questions.
<Mastiff> so did I... reading them makes you an expert?
<swtjaane> no KalunHail that is not true!
<Mastiff> they asked him point blank... he wrote them
<Kree> Nope, but there are few experts in any area
<swtjaane> his students wrote the bulk
<swtjaane> he is a professor
<Kree> he did not write them......smiles
<Tanith> swtjaane: By local terminology, you are "flagging" by using a lowercase name, signalling that you are a submissive.
<|Psyche|> youre slow? LOL, KalunHail--I get up to 20 wpm with a "tailwind"
<|Psyche|> Tanith----my apologies, I meant that a person's personality and sexuality arent each defined by the other :>
<swtjaane> yeah on irc i thought you were talking real life
Tanith nods at Psyche.
<KalunHail> Believe wha t you wish swtjaane.
<Mastiff> yes, Im sure all of you were students of John "Norman", right?
<swtjaane> tho i had this name in a vanilla channel on Compuserve first mostly cause i couldn;t type well lol
<|Psyche|> Kree---I agree....there were ghostriders for a few of the ones in midrange, then he picked it up again for the last few....
<Kree> Mastiff jesus didnt write the bible either
<Tanith> swtjaane: A person "flagging" in real life would wear items of clothing, fetish gear, etc, on the left or right side to signify their orientation and interest.
<KalunHail> I know who Dr. Lange is.
<swtjaane> no Mastiff is oriental better? Master?
<swtjaane> ok
<|Psyche|> LOL Kree!
<|Psyche|> he Didnt write it? hmmmmmmm
<Rapture> pen name?
kaila grins at Kree
<KalunHail> Yes, pen name.
<Maddie> yes john norman is a pen name
<Mastiff> how do you know who wrote it? were you THERE too?
<swtjaane> tries to bribe Master Mastiff with a German dish
<Kree> Mastiff I wasnt there, but I have a brain and use it.. smiles
<Tanith> It can take a long time to learn about the Gorean point of view, since it is a lot subtler and wider ranging than most people categorize it as.
<Maddie> swtjaane i don't think the way to man's heart is thru is tummy is working tonight ,)
<swtjaane> you do not Kree we all know that! <ducks>
<Kree> Tanith I agree
<Rapture> there was a lang also who wrote amdromeda strain.. who turned out to be michael critgeon (sp)
<Mastiff> great... got a crystal ball, too?
<Mastiff> think the dead REALLY rose from the grave?
<swtjaane> holds her tray with her German dishes upon it and waits for the Master to respons
`jenna^ quietly enters the room..slips to her knees..blue eyes submissively lowered..jenna whispers.."May a girl please enter please?"
<Mastiff> come jenna
<swtjaane> whispers not on my tray Master!
<Kree> Mastiff it is a weakness to attack a person and not have a point of view... I also can be an asshole if I choose
<KalunHail> Come jenna
<Maddie> ahh come on in jenna don't have to ask here
<Tanith> If you had answered a dozen crank calls in a row, and the thirteenth just tried to ask you a question, would your mood be kinda snappish maybe?
<Tanith> That's what Goreans have to put up with, in a sense.
<BigM^> ummmm you got those patatoe cakes on there swtjaane?
<Mastiff> Im not attacking you... or anyone
<swtjaane> yes Master BigM
<Kogg> good point Tanith
<Kree> Tanith that is because so many on line have gone to channels and acted foolishly. those that are not that way pay a price for tat
BigM^ takes one...nummy thanks swtjaane
<Tanith> For some reason, there are a lot of complete dorkwards, HNG's, and just people hostile to what they think the Gorean way is, bothering Goreans. Often.
`jenna^ sweeps up gracefully to her feet..looks about..smiles softly as she finds the slavefurs..once again kneels..keeping quiet in her place..listening
<Kree> Just like the "kneel bitch doms" there are many from Gor that go to channels and act like teir whips will control a room or a sub
<Maddie> Kree that is true, and some goreans while asking that others respect thier lifestyle do not reciprocate
<swtjaane> Tanith there are also dorks pretending to be Gorean
<Tanith> So if you ask Goreans some questions, be prepared to be *real* nice and make clear that you aren't one of them. It helps.
<swtjaane> make no mistake of that
<|Psyche|> LOL Rapture....pen names--several of em, for the Bible...hehehe
<|Psyche|> Mastiff? you asked if he was there too...youre saying you were?
<Tanith> Oh, to be sure, swtjaane. ;)
<Mastiff> nope... I didnt claim anyone wrote the bible
<Tanith> There is no such thing as a community free of assholes. ;)
<Rapture> Psyche.. -shrug- its unconfirmed i admit.. it was an oddity...
<Mastiff> I am an asshole
<Kree> Maddie that is true..... I was banned from a Gor channel because the submissive that went there with me to observe didnt meet their rules.... if visitors are to be abused they will never have standing
<Maddie> well we all have one you know, assholes that is
<swtjaane> returns from the servery with a tray laden with Hawaiin food and again kneels before the Master
vanea smiles at Master Mastiff
<Tanith> Not so's I've noticed, Mastiff, but I guess I have different standards of asshole.
<Mastiff> I have yet to be tested...
<KalunHail> Psyche, You asked how I live this lifestyle. I live by the Gorean Ethos. You would have to read the books to truly understand.
<Tanith> Kalun, there are a lot of folks who have read the books and come up with different interpretations, y'know?
kaila agrees with Tanith on that point.
<KalunHail> Very true Tanith
<tyki{KTs}> there are even contradictions within the books
<|Psyche|> very widly ranging, Tanith...you can ask any of them...and you will prolly not get much of an answer as to waht it is at all....dont even ask them about honor, that is another enigma
<kaila> Lots of interpretations..is one more right than another? Probably just a matter of opinion
<|Psyche|> true....all have their gems....personally though--I get kinda sick of visiting
<|Psyche|> Tanith.....go to a "Tavern"..they put up with nothing there....
<|Psyche|> Tal BigM^ <grins>
<Kree> Kalun, as usual that said nothing
<Maddie> True Kree
<|Psyche|> true....all have their gems....personally though--I get kinda sick of visiting channels and being told that all FreeWomen are slaves seeking a collar....
<KalunHail> Just as many many people have read the bible and come up with different beliefs.
<Rapture> Tanith.. Tarl even noted that such contradictions as your point made, in the first book.
<Mastiff> Well, it is obvious I will get nowhere... Goreans, I will see you later, Be well... I have a couple of slaves here to play with...
<Mastiff> to the rest, good luck
<myria{Kk}> myria wishes You well, Master Mastiff
<Maddie> well thanks Mastiff, you have a good evening too
<swtjaane> waves tearily at Master Mastiff
<`jenna^> may a girl have permission to leave please, Master Mastiff?
<Ramius`> Be well Mastiff
<Mastiff> heel, jenna
<Kogg> I wish you well Mastiff
<`jenna^> yes, Master Mastiff
Ramius` is going as well
<BigM^> Tal Psyche..<eg>
<Tanith> There are two significant safety issues I have a problem with in the Gor books, actually. :( Branding and unsupported face cuffing. The latter bears a nontrivial risk of neck breaking in Earth gravity, and the former (branding for 5 seconds
<Ramius`> Be well Goreans
<Tanith> with a thick iron) cripples and destroys muscle tissue.
<swtjaane> Tanith understand that it is fictituous!
<Rapture> be well Ramius
<swtjaane> there is no planet named Gor!
<KalunHail> I will agree with that Tanith
<Tanith> Oh, I do....it's the folks who don't that I worry about.
<KalunHail> The branding is wrong.
<Tanith> Branding is real; been there done that; it's one of the edgeplay techniques I learned.
<Kogg> Th e Gor we talk of is a philosophy
<KalunHail> And I do not cuff across the face.
<Maddie> that is a worry Tanith, some ppl do read the books and think they can try it
<Tanith> And I don't disagree with slave brandings. Or cuffing the face, for that matter.
<KalunHail> Branding is very real
<KalunHail> But
<swtjaane> thank you Kogg and and and the philosophy as in D&S is not concrete it varies somewhat
<Kree> Branding isnt wrong, Norman and his students just didnt write about it safely
<Maddie> but then some read the story of o or the beauty seriers and want to try some of that stuff
<Tanith> I just worry about novices who think the Gor books are 100% correct.
<Kree> Tanith that is a HUGE concern
juielle stays quiet
<KalunHail> You do not do it for five seconds with a white hot brand.
<Tanith> The philosophy I haven't any problem with. It's the physical safety stuff.
<Maddie> i see the gor books as similar to the bible, there as as many ways to interpret it
<KalunHail> ....unless you are branding cattle.
<Kogg> damn, and all I read was Alien
<swtjaane> yes Maddie!
<TheKttN> i still don't know what the philosophy is
myria{Kk} eeps
<Maddie> and just as many disagreements as to whose interpretation is correct
<|Psyche|> I have READ the Books....define the Codes, that was what I asked...tell me what you meant by youre living the "Gorean Philosophy"
<|Psyche|> seeya Mastiff...say hi to Zeb and Bear for me <G>
|Psyche| waits for an answer to what the 24/7 Gorean Philosophy is....from any gorean present.....
<swtjaane> its a deeper D&S involvement to me Kttn
<Tanith> Maddie: Yep, got some safety issues there, and I had a chitchat with Ann Rice about them....who said that all that was right in her books she owed to John Preston, and the incorrect descriptions were her poetic license.
<|Psyche|> ok..kogg..in a nutshell..what is this philosopy that you live ?
<Rapture> Maddie as the interpetation of Honor
<swtjaane> is not Rapture not for many!
<Tanith> Psyche: there is no one single easy answer.
<kaila> I would like to hear the philosophy statement too.
<swtjaane> not what these people could interpret that as
<|Psyche|> lol..um..Tanith........I know of one thing that weighs nothing---but is wrth more than Gold....<smile>
Maddie: Rapture honor may mean different things in different cultures
Kogg: ok, Psyche, in a nutshell what is the damn philosophy you live
Tanith: And Psyche - are you having problems with your private messaging system? It's turning up in the wrong window.
kaila: just one Gor can answer...just curious what their personal opinon is.
Maddie: it is a very personal thing, what i see as honor you might not and vice versa
|Psyche|: I have READ the Books....define the Codes, KalunHail...
Rapture: swtjaane... alot of 'goreans' interpet honor in many different facets... many..
swtjaane: Maddie this is a key problem with D&S and Gor
swtjaane: yes Rapture
BigM^: ummmm hop on my tarn...ride to work....if my boss pisses me off we go outside and meet steel like worriors would....hows that Psy
Maddie: what is honorable in the us may not be honorable in the orient
Kree: Maddie what is claimed as honorable doesnt always happe anywhere
Tanith nods. Different cultures view things differently. F'r instance, the Inuit have no theft, because they have little concept of private property that isn't borrowable without asking.
KalunHail: I did Not say that I live by the Codes. I said the Ethos.
|Psyche|: at least as much as what you believe them to be for you....
|Psyche|: lol..um..Tanith...even a teen would realize that there is no "Counter Urth"
|Psyche|: exactly Tanith--i was asking ANY Gorean to please tell me WHat the philosophy is to THEM.....
Rapture: swtjaane as... some think it is ok to bear false witness as long as it gets you what you wish... and some will not even go there... along with the 1000 other interpetations
Maddie: Kree that is true
swtjaane: to a Dom and sub it is the total protection and value from the Dom an exchange of power total devotion and obedience of the sub in return the Dom is a Maestro who plays his sub as a fine violin and to him comes only a music his ears will hear this is not always or rarely so on Gor
KalunHail: And if you have the book then read it for your self. Book 8 page 14 I believe...
KalunHail: Looking to make sure..
Rapture: ..and some use Gor to boulster their own ego's..
swtjaane: Kalun all the Gor channels differ in rules philosophys if you will
|Psyche|: Tanith--if I asked a Innuit what "honor" was--i would prolly get some sort of an answer....:>
Tanith: With all due respect, Psyche, are you listening or doing your best to find something to argue with? ;)
|Psyche|: KalunHail...may i ask you once more--not for a page number and a reading lesson---what is this "Philosophy" you said you lived by---?
swtjaane: so to read "the books" means nothing since all make thier own interpretation
Tanith chuckles. Folks are rarely obligated to explain themselves fully to just anybody, y'know.
|Psyche|: nope..Tanith..with all due respect, I returned to get a singel question answered....so far, no takers
Kogg: 1. my word is my bond 2. loyalty comes first to my country 3. I would lay down my life for my friends
kaila: Is the tendency of GOr to be poly, or monogomous? Is one preferable over the other as perscribed by the philosophy?
Rapture: swtjaane ..except when they came to 'True Goreans'.
Kree: and is the "live by" real or online and if real please describe it
Maddie: Rapture true, but some bdsm in a similar fashion, i think ppl will be ppl, no matter where they are or who or what they profess to be
Rapture: er claim
Kogg: that is a start to my philosophy
Tanith: Kalun, could you help me understand what it is that makes you Gorean?
|Psyche|: he said he typed slowly whan I asked, Tanith..he really must tupe very slowly
swtjaane: Rapture your life is modeled after books written by children?
KalunHail: Can you define yours in 100 words or less Psyche?
swtjaane: i think you have found your own interpertation and your own heart and i believe yours will be different from each Master of Gor
|Psyche|: yupp I can do that Kalun---would you like me to? my own Philosophy is very easy.....
Rapture: swtjaane, i point at the contradictions and observations i have seen thus far.
Kree: Kalun.. THESE are the questions we wanted to ask Bear and Zeb......You claim a philosophy why cant you state it?
swtjaane: which are?
Rapture: i have related a small sample already.
swtjaane: do you disagree with my last statement?
Rapture: "[21:13] <swtjaane> i think you have found your own interpertation and your own heart and i believe yours will be different from each Master of Gor"
Rapture: that one?
swtjaane: yes
swtjaane: do you disagree Master?
vanea smiles at swtjaane..is sure many have read the Loving Dominant ...SM101, etc...but have their own interpretation...
Rapture: my interpetation could well be biased...as could everyone's. However, when someone says untruths, and claims them as fact... i have challenge with their
Kogg: part of this philosophy will also stir many fires...but here goes
Rapture: .. interpetation.
KalunHail: As far as living the lifestyle..., many of my beliefs also overlap the other Beliefs in this world. It is how I combine them that I feel makes me Gorean.
kaila: I dont think it's that difficult to state the philosophy by which you live. I would like to hear from a gor, honestly and sincerely. No kidding! *smile*
Tanith rags on Jay lots about SM101, chuckle.
swtjaane: which untruths do you speak of Master?
`tyki{KTs: this girl sees the Gorean philosophy in her own life as a recognition that her heart burns to serve a strong Master, and that in serving him and pleasing him in all she does, she fulfills her deepest needs...
KalunHail: On a narrower scale...,
kaila: Oh darn, I had a question for tyki!
|Psyche|: Kalun....my statement earlier---in one of the earliset books--apparently escaped you..."That which weighs nothing but is more valuable than gold"...is Honor....I live my own sort of honor--as do all--and it is part of my philosophy of life to wit:
tyki{KTs}: kaila...tyki is here...in spite of her ISP
<Rapture> re tyki
<kaila> tyki: would you serve a non-strong Master...and what does strong mean to you?? Strong physically, emotionally? Mentally??
<Tanith> Kogg, how do you think gay relationships work, then? ;)
<Rapture> i'm talking of the interpetation that is the issue .. not specifics of others conduct.
<Rapture> as your question so indicated
<KalunHail> Why do you feel that it Excapes me Psyche..., And why do you feel that you have it if all that you can do if give cheap shots when I am trying to tell you what you asked?
<swtjaane> i am very confused
<|Psyche|> Keep your word...alow all to know you for taht at least...and......speak not badly about another's Faith, nor of their condition in lacking of one....and...be true to yourself...NEVER EVER try to follow a path that does not feel right for you.....<|Psyche|> ...see the beauty in all things---as well as the darke ..so that you can more appreciate the beauty ...and take second place in nothing, willingly....and keep body fit, and hard, mind sharp and clear....do nothing to harm yourself or others <a Wiccan Creed--I too combine philosophies...> and...
<Maddie> Kogg dominance is natural for some women too
<tyki{KTs}> yes, tyki serves all Masters...because in serving them she reflects the honor of her Master...and the strength comes from within...a strong Master knows who he is and what he wants...
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ldyStone smiles
<Kogg> personally, I dont consider gay relationships to be the norm, but that is their business
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<Kree> Kogg there IS no norm
<Tanith> Psyche, I'm also Wiccan - and I gotta say that I have seen you speak pretty badly about another's faith right here and now.
<Kree> smiling
<vanea> the Gorean Philosophy is...honor...integrity and brotherhood as explained to vanea.
<KalunHail> Yes vanea, true.
<Kree> vanea that philosophy is not limited to Gor
<kaila> Do you ever find yourself wanting to have your slave be more than just property? I mean, what if you get really attached to that person?
<Tanith> Kogg, I've seen and studied hunter gatherer societies...and in truth, most of them do not have the leisure for dominance; the sexes tend to do different jobs most of the time which contribute significantly to survival, because they have to.
<|Psyche|> Tanith---Gor is NOT a Faith
<|Psyche|> that is good, vanea
<|Psyche|> KalunHail----what have you tried to explain to me? I've seen no explainations at all....<scrolling back>
<Maddie> that philosophy is found in many areas
vanea is sure it isnt Master..but perhaps the meaning to each is Master
<Tanith> kaila, for some, property is the highest expression of love there can be.
<KalunHail> I am very attached to my slave. I own her completely.
<myria{Kk}> kaila, do you want to love the person who Masters' you?
<Kree> vanea.... as to honor, I could make a judgement about somone leaving this discussion rather than be here to really answer difficult questions
<Kogg> Tanith, and do the females of the hunter gatherer tribes get in the face of the stronger faster males and demand shit
<kaila> Yes, of course, and I want love and respect in return.
<Tanith> Gor is a life philosophy, so I suppose it doesn't count and it's okay to badmouth it in your book. ;) Eh?
<KalunHail> I was about to try when you spouted off.., I realize that you had no desire to hear it.
Tanith laughs. Assuredly they do, and since they often control the beer supply, they get it.
<KalunHail> You simply want to slam other peoples beliefs.
<Maddie> Kogg sometimes stronger and faster does not always mean better
<|Psyche|> I do not badmouth Gor---where did yous see that Tanith?
<Kogg> damn, that old cheap female trick
Tanith laughs.
<vanea> Masters Bears honor has nothing to do with him leaving...the discussion was not conducted perhaps in the manner he thought it was going to be...
<Kree> Psyche. if you will be silent he has agreed to answer
<Maddie> same as the old cheap male trick, Kogg?
<Kree> vanea that isnt true
<|Psyche|> awww..I see....this is a Faith then, KalunHail? a Faith based on the books of John Norman?
<myria{Kk}> kaila, in the books there were Masters that loved their slaves
<Kogg> no, the controlling the beer supply
<Tanith> Kogg, human beings *can* function in the Gorean way. More often they function in a much more prosaic, boring manner that you can observe if you get stuck taking years of anthro classes and doing fieldwork. ;)
<KalunHail> My point made folks.
<tyki{KTs}> and slaves who loved their Masters
<swtjaane> ok kaila i would like to say what i found of beauty of being a gorean kajira and to try and explain its relation to me as far as D&S
<kaila> Did anyone see my earlier question about poly being the norm in gor? Or is that a misinterpretation on my part?
<Kree> Psyche do you WANT to hear his answer?
<KalunHail> She has no desire to hear, just to slam.
<|Psyche|> Kree---am I lagged to you?
<myria{Kk}> myria didn't see your question, kaila
<Tanith> The beer supply, and the carbohydrate supply, is a complex mechanism that is a lot more than a cheap trick of any gender origin, in truth.
<Kree> If you WANT to hear his answer be quiet and let him answer
<tyki{KTs}> tyki did not see your question either kaila?
<KalunHail> I will not discuss it with her. She does not want a discussion, just a pity party for her ego.
<Tanith> And it was a facetious answer, but the reality is that if you actually do take those boring old anthro classes and study how boring old hunter gatherer societies really work, you will find that Gor isn't a model that you see much of.
<kaila> Is poly the norm in gor? Or is that my misinterpretaion?
<swtjaane> when i was with my Master in Gor our level of commitment became deeper we came as if to move as one so i was a true slave to him of my heart our hearts beat as one i wanted key word wanted nothing more than to please him and so it can seem as tho your a robot yet it is by choice and yet it is not you are a slave to your heart
<Tanith> Psyche, I'm not Gorean - but I feel your hostility towards Gor and Goreans, and I understand why you have trouble getting answers. Nobody likes being challenged and demanded to explain themselves.
<Kree > Tanith that is her way
<tyki{KTs}> kaila...do you mean by that having multiple partners?
<kaila> yes, tyki
<Tanith> It is a model you see some of sometimes, Kogg - and yes, it can and does work. A number of strategies can and do work, and evolve over time.
<Kree> That is why I have tried to get her to listen to his explanation, but she can not be silent to hear it
<Tanith> Well, I'll listen. :)
<Kree> So would I
<kaila> I'll listen too! :))
<KalunHail> Nor do I care to try again.
<Kogg> Tanith, I too have studied a bit :)
<|Psyche|> wait a minute!!! KalunHail asked ME to give HIM my philosophy in 100 words or less--that was what I have been printing....
Tanith chuckles. It would be nice to imagine that primitive societies were conducted in a fun and kinky manner with slavegirls falling all over their dominant Masters. ;)
<Kree> LOL Tanith sign me up LOL
<|Psyche|> you asked if i can give you my philosophy--that was what I have been doing...
<Tanith> 'Cept they aren't, in vast majority. They're kinda boring, and their sex lives are shockingly vanilla. ;)
<tyki{KTs}> tyki is first girl on her Master's chain...being in multiple scenes can sometimes be a part of it...but from what tyki has seen that is generally not the norm...rather the exception...
amber`` raises deep blue eyes to stare silently at Mistress Psyche before dropping them..
<tyki{KTs}> the care and keeping of a single slave can be quite an undertaking for a Master
<KalunHail> And you went against your own philosophy while you were printing it.
<kaila> but he has more than one slavegirl, tyki? By chain, do you mean....a line of slaves?
<tyki{KTs}> yes...this girl's Master has two slaves...
<kaila> does that bother you?
<Kree> tyki real or online?
<tyki{KTs}> and she knew before she begged for his collar that he wanted more than one slave
<Kree> tyki real or online?
<tyki{KTs}> Master has two slaves on-line...and tyki loves her chain sister very much...we have met a few times RL...
<|Psyche|> how so KalunHail? as soon as I stopped typing my philosphy long enough to see that you had started yours--i stopped....
<Kree> how many of you are married to others?
<kaila> do you see your Master in r/l?
<tyki{KTs}> and Master KT is married...not to tyki...so tyki is also in chain with his RL wife...
<tyki{KTs}> and yes tyki goes to see Master KT about every 6 weeks
<Kree> so his wife knows?
<kaila> do you speak with his wfe?
<myria{Kk}> "Mistress Psyche, what myria doesn't understand, is that if you hate Gor so much and dislike it's philosophy, why is it that you are constantly on Gorean channels?
<tyki{KTs}> tyki was at their wedding...it was her job to be sure he made it to the wedding on time
<tyki{KTs}> yes...tyki speaks with his wife...
<kaila> are you married to another tyki?
Tanith nodnods. Gor is not for everybody. Some people are not Gorean and don't like it and shouldn't be forced to be around it. Nor should Goreans who do like it be forced to be around them. :/
<tyki{KTs}> and tyki's RL hubby talks with Master KT and welcomed him to our home
<kaila> I see, thanks for answering :)
<|Psyche|> myria...I do not "hate Gor" it is a few ppls that I have a difficult time with...if you aska around on austnet, you will find I am far from hating it
Tanith admires tyki's ethically poly arrangement.
<tyki{KTs}> tyki has been married for 22 years
<KalunHail> Damn, My buffer's not big enough..., It cut what you said..
<myria{Kk}> Mistress, myria has seen you on austnet, before
<swtjaane> a girl asks are we having fun yet??
<Rapture> swtjaane of course we are... ;)
<tyki{KTs}> and is grateful that her RL hubby allows her the freedom to follow her dreams and her heart
<swtjaane> ok!
<swtjaane> jus checkin
<|Psyche|> ...and, myria, I take it you did not agree with my personal creedo that I printed in channel, as asked?
<swtjaane> Rapture will you marry me?
vanea smiles at swtjaane...hoping she has
<Kree> tyki that is very rare..... most lie to their spouses
<Rapture> lets see.. gorean slaves cant own property.. are you wealthy?
<Rapture> hehe
<Rapture> ;)
<myria{Kk}> actually, Mistress, no
KalunHail chuckles listening to Rapture
<tyki{KTs}> tyki had 3 rules levied on her when she came on-line 14 months ago...
<Maddie> now Rapture how do you define wealth?
<KalunHail> I suger momma slave..
<Rapture> Maddia ahah i wont go there...
<tyki{KTs}> 1. she must let those she interacts with know she is RL married
<Rapture> Maddie
<tyki{KTs}> 2. that nothing she did on-line be kept secret from her RL hubby
<Maddie> good we sure could get into some discussion
kaila was thrown out of a regular channel by a "gor" because she would not kneel...go figure. doesnt mean that every gor is a creep though. I can see when someone is sincere or just a pain.
<swtjaane> well yeah i was as LadyJane see then i was ayla and collared to this Ubar who lost a battle so i was lost upon the fields and my friend on 6 rum and cokes was a slaver and he renamed me jarrra and i have been wandering round ever since chuckle
<swtjaane> but shhh
<Thor-> Good night, all.
<Maddie> ahh Rapture np i read typo, i make enough of them
<tyki{KTs}> 3. that those she interact with know that hubby may read any logs of tyki's on-line time
<Rapture> Maddie.. nod. some take offense... I try to correct my typo's when i can.
<Kogg> Well, it is time for me to go, but let me sum it all up in one brief statement
Tanith chuckles. On a BDSM channel, I don't think it's appropriate to force somebody to kneel, unless it's a theme channel with the rules outlined clearly.
<Maddie> if yousay so Rapture
<kaila> those are good rules, tyki. keeps it all above board for you both.
<Maddie> nite Kogg be well
vanea smiles at Mistress Psyche...you are the veiled Lady of Velvet Memories....from Gorean Matchmakers are you not Mistress??
<swtjaane> Tanith its different tho!
<myria{Kk}> myria wishes the Masters in this channel well
<Tanith> What's different?
<kaila> Tanith, it wasn't a gor channel even. Boy I was mad too! *grin* but got over it...and just wrote it off.
<Maddie> nite myria
<Kogg> I am Gorean, you want to know me, come learn, you want to tell me why I am fucked up, then go pound sand up your ass
<myria{Kk}> and myria wishes the Mistresses in the channel well, also
Tanith nods. Well, on a Gorean channel, the rules are different.
Tanith giggles at Kogg.
<KalunHail> Well said Kogg.
<myria{Kk}> bye slavegirls
<Maddie> oh Kogg that sounds nasty
<kaila> Yes, I agree Tanith
vanea wishes you well myria
<kaila> night myria :)
<Kogg> and that folks is a Gorean response
<tyki{KTs}> when tyki came on line it was to enhance her relationship with her hubby...without open communication that purpose would have been lost
myria{Kk} waves goodbye
Kogg chuckles
<swtjaane> geeeez
<Tanith> On channel #unix, you don't grab people and ask them to kneel. You don't do that on #bdsm either. On Gorean channels, different story.
<tyki{KTs}> good night myria
<Tanith> Too true, Kogg.
<swtjaane> <----does not wanna do that! cries!
<ldywhispr> you know Kogg Sir..i went to silk&steel after the discussion...and i will never return..i would not treat my dog, the way they treated me...they were mean and rude
<Kogg> All men are Ubar within the circle of their own steel
<Tanith> Kogg, where do you suggest we go to learn?
<ldywhispr> and..I tried to observe their ways too
<Kogg> and ldywhisper, why would you assume that I give a shit about that
<Tanith> Trying may not be succeeding.
<Tanith> Gor is a pretty harsh place.
<kaila> Would you escort us Kogg? *grin*
<ldywhispr> because you are Gorian are you not Sir?...
<swtjaane> yeah lets all go!
<ldywhispr> do you not come from there?
<Kogg> I am an op there
<kaila> someone said S&S on the austnet
<kaila> is a discussion channel
<Kogg> did you follow the rules of the place??
<Maddie> ldywhisper some of the channels on austnet are more open to ppl trying to learn or understand about gor
<swtjaane> ldywhisper he means he does not care if you are abused
<myria{Kk}> yes, kaila
<Tanith> ldywhisper, I have visited S&S on DalNet, been respectful and followed the rules, and have generally been treated nicely.
ldywhispr just shakes her head in bewilderment
<swtjaane> Tanith the channel is never the same twice
<swtjaane> there is no ryme or reason to it
swtjaane: there is no ryme or reason to it
TheKttN: Tanith did you call all the men Master?
vanea went to S&S on austnet..and learned much there as it is a discussion channel..
Tanith: swtjaane: I don't necessarily agree.
Tanith: TheKttN: Heck no.
Maddie: swtjaane like all places it may depend on who is there
swtjaane: yes that is it
|Psyche|: yup..very true swtjane---depends on who is oping..that way with all channels, acctually...
Kogg: all of you, if you want to come to the S&S, go read the website, learn our rules...they are strictly enforced, no matter who you think you are
TheKttN: i couldn't, the word means too much to me.
swtjaane: Kogg that is not true
swtjaane: absolutely not it depends on the mood of the room
Tanith: I called people "friend" and went with an open, friendly and respectful attitude. I enjoyed my time there.
amber`` looks up at vanea and then over to Mistress Psyche.. amber knows Mistress as evenstar
Kogg: that is sometimes true as well
ldywhispr: i did..i did not refer to me as I or me..i called the men Masters...
swtjaane: i am sorry Master but that is how it is
vanea smiles at amber
BigM^: as with any irc channel swtjaane
swtjaane: i find it to be the most abusive on the Gor channels
swtjaane: it to me leans heavily into ruff S&M
ldywhispr: but you Tanith did not go there as a slave...i am a real life slave and so i went as a slave
Kogg: sometimes
Maddie: well sometimes it can have some real opinated individuals
Tanith: Abusive means nonconsensual, and if you don't consent to their brand of slavery, don't participate. Simple enough.
Maddie: s and s that is
myria{Kk}: if you don't like it swtjaane, then why do you keep going back?
Kogg: and I am as opinionated as they come
KalunHail: I need paga and a hot slut.
kaila: ldywhispr, I do know they dont handle it well if you call anyone "sir" <g>
KalunHail: I hear the tavern calling me Kogg.
Tanith: I escorted a novice sub friend of mine to the tavern, told her to be respectful and read the web page, and she did fine, too, though she stumbled a lot and was corrected.
ldywhispr: i called no one Sir..i referred to them only as Master
swtjaane: it was where i started years ago and for a time some of the old people would be there now i know no one and will not go back as it reminds me of a romper room cesspool at times
myria{Kk} giggles and squirms at Master KalunHail's comments
Kree: kaila I ask people NOT to call me Sir...... that is the title demanded by wannabes
Tanith looks at Kree mildly. Really now.
kaila nods to Kree
Kree: I dont share the interests or ttles of wannabes
Maddie: now Kree i disagree with that
Kogg: ouch, you mean we even have fun there sometimes
kaila: I rarely rarely call anyone Sir...and no one Master.
Maddie: not all who like to be called sir are wannabes, but agian like gor many are hngs
Kree: Maddie most wannabes demand to be called Sir
|Psyche|: that is his choice, Tanith...if he doesnt wish to be called "Sir"...<smile>
Tanith: I have been honored to count among my friends some of the gay leather MC's, and they use Sir in their culture.
KalunHail looks to myria, grins wickedly
Maddie: well true
Tanith: And they are among the most honorable men I know who live.
KalunHail: That's what I hear..
Maddie: but then i use sir a lot, i even call the grocery store clerk sir
Kree: Maddie. not referring to everyone, but the title has been ruined by people who will call a red dog Dir if it has a penis and a capped name
Tanith: I invite you to join me in the Eagle some night, and you can repeat that statement, if you dare.
myria{Kk} squirms hotly against her owner and smiles
Maddie: heheeheheh lol Kree
Kree: the Eagle?
Tanith: Different cultures, different standards. If Goreans insult and disrespect the ways of others, is it a surprise that there is insult and disrespect offered in turn?
swtjaane: Tanith may i ask of you one thing?
Tanith: The Eagle. San Francisco's toughest leatherbar.
swtjaane: do not please please compare Goreans to the people of s&s
Tanith: Please, swtjaane.
swtjaane: that is of its own
myria{Kk} laughs
swtjaane: and what it is most of us dont know
Maddie: Tanith it should not be, but there are a few that seem to say respect me and my lifestyle but i won't respect you and yuors
swtjaane: it is the oldest and largest channel
Tanith chuckles. Goreans are a wide and diverse group, and I am in no position to judge who holds claim to the title in truth.
swtjaane: so i think you see many non Goreans there
Maddie: and so how can no not expect some insult
tyki{KTs}: tyki's Master does not permit her to visit S&S
Tanith: True, Maddie. I don't like what I just saw, at all.
|Psyche|: well..Tanith...Goreans insult people? surely you cant be serious?
swtjaane: you cannot assume the horrors that have been seen there at times are Gorean
Tanith: I have seen no horrors in S&S, swtjaane.
Kree: I dont judge Gor... I judge people and how they act.. I think there are parts of Gor that are quite lovely and many parts that are ridiculous
myria{Kk}: swtjaane, neither has myria
Tanith: Well, very few, and more laughable than horrific, HNG's misbehaving and getting thrown out.
kaila: I have, Tanith...I have logs too...sadly
|Psyche|: I have, Tanith...I doubt that sweetjane made that up
kaila: These are by ops of S&S
myria{Kk}: myria has not seen the slaves that are urinated on as you claim.
Tanith: So watersports is not an OK kink? Sheesh.
Kogg: nor have I
myria{Kk} giggles
Kree: Tanith I was thrown out because someone I carried with me to observe didnt follow theor protocol ina given channel
vanea has never gotten wet sitting at her computer...well not by urine anyway..grin
Maddie: well if you li ke watersports it is,
Kree: she made the serious blunder of politely saying good night as we left
kaila: vanea, are you r/l or on line?
swtjaane: MasterKogg it is a poorly run channel not what it was with little control
Maddie: other than swimming or diving it has never turned me on much
vanea: both kaila
myria{Kk} laughs
|Psyche|: Tanith---only watersports are ok when consentual--I think that may be what she was refferring to
Kogg: then dont go there
Tanith: If you enter S&S, you consent to their style of no-limits hardcore.
swtjaane: oh believe me i wont and will protect all those i teach from it
Rapture: hmmm.
Tanith: And I think they make admirable ethical efforts to make that clear in the channel topic, and from the beginning.
Maddie: swtjaane what Kogg says is true, if you don't like it, stay way
Tanith: If you don't consent, don't go there, or don't be a slave there.
swtjaane: oh i agree still i hope one day to see something of its origins back its very sad
Kree: Kogg we didnt after that, but IF you want aceptance, you must understand that polite visitors do not know these things and the insecurity of having to attack polite visitors sucks to the max
Maddie: they don't have to change to suit you,
kaila agrees completely
swtjaane: Maddie they would have to be to change
|Psyche|: no limits hardcore Gor would mean a Freewoman would never go into a Tavern....according to the books---as she would not come out Free
swtjaane: its total kaos
Kree: As far as I am concerned the person that attacked us and banned us should be the Smallcox Poster Boy
Maddie: but I also agree with Kree
|Psyche|: yeah, a number of really good channels are gone now...
myria{Kk}: Master Kree myria thinks that most Goreans dont care about acceptance
Tanith has never had a serious problem in S&S as a Free Woman.
|Psyche|: you said you hadnt been there often Tanith...
Kree: myria then tey need to understand the revulsion of others that go there politely to learn
Tanith also has basic good manners and a friendly, cheery attitude. It helps.
myria{Kk}: why, Master?
Maddie: Tanith that it does
Kree: Tanith I do too
Tanith: Psyche, I don't IRC often, but I've been dropping into the S&S for a year or so now.
KalunHail: We can change that Tanith.. grins
Kogg: You see, I am very comfortable with who and what I am, therefore your acceptance, like, or approval are meaningless
myria{Kk}: what about the revulsion of seeing someone who begs to be beat for their own pleasure?
Kree: and I do NOT expect to be attacked when I sit silently or speak in a channel to learn
vanea: irc is just a means of communication...a way to exchange conversation.....although many seem to be able to separate online, roleplaying, and real at times she has found.
|Psyche|: so did I--and still do when I visit an RPG channel....a Free Forum, though, can upset ppls....
Tanith chuckles at Kalun. The few times someone suggested enslaving me, I have been absolutely honest with them, and they decided it wasn't a good idea.
KalunHail: Agreed Kogg
Kree: who does that myria?
myria{Kk}: myria sees lots of bdsm submissives orgasm under the whip
Rapture smiles...
swtjaane: myria its of nastiness people are speaking
Kree: myria have you SEEN this with your wn eyes or have you read it on a screen?
swtjaane: of not being welcomed of being insulted
Tanith: myria, I see that too....it's an active BDSM social calendar out here in San Francisco....but Gor isn't about BDSM.
myria{Kk}: jaane, if you don't like it, you can go elsewhere
|Psyche|: Kree--they will attack a FM or a FW if they dont like your nick...one told a friend of mine, that his just wasnt Gorean and others started bugging him about it....I used to go to S&S alot....not any longer
myria{Kk}: that's right, Mistress Tanith
vanea has seen that in real life too myria but never experienced that when she was a sub personally
Kree: myria there are people that enjoy pain
myria{Kk}: it's a philosophy
kaila: Kree, I've experienced it as well as seen it with my own eyes.
swtjaane: i agree
myria{Kk}: and Master Kree there are people that enjoy S&S
Tanith is one of those artistic edgeplayers, well practiced in the hardcore stuff....which has nothing necessarily to do with domination or submission at all.
myria{Kk}: myria doesn't have to go and observe people being beat to like it
swtjaane: myria you have to realize i have been Gorean for over 5 years and i teach it so i do not always agree with the opinions coming out of S&S
swtjaane: that is all
Kree: kaila there are submisives that love pain and the pleasure from it... that doesnt mean all in BDSM are into pain
myria{Kk} laughs
juielle quit going to S&S when they banned her for the way her Master had placed her collar on
myria{Kk}: jaane, who do you teach?
myria{Kk}: where do you teach?
Tanith: swtjaane, do you find any contradiction in being a slave and teaching others?
swtjaane: because i believe in many Gorean things
swtjaane: but not as told in s&s
kaila: Kree: I well understand that. Erotic pain is not for everyone
swtjaane: or shown
|Psyche| smiles at juielle, sorry hon--didnt notice you in here :>
KalunHail raises an eyebrow at swtjaane's statement..
Kogg: actually, those 20 or 30 people who are in S&S at allmost any given time, really only go there to punish themselves
Tanith: I agree, Kree...I am also oriented towards dominance and submission, and I recognize that SM is something entirely seperate.
Kree: Right Tanith
juielle: Greetings Mistress Psyche
swtjaane: no Tanith
myria{Kk}: then don't go to S&S jaane
Maddie: Kogg you mean they are all machocists?
swtjaane: not at all
juielle is being extra special behaved tonight
|Psyche|: greetings kajira, juielle
tyki{KTs}: tyki is also a teacher of Gor
myria{Kk} laughs
vanea smiles at Master Kogg
Kogg laughs
swtjaane: i have said that i wont myria geez lol
KalunHail: Like I am thinking of doing about now..
swtjaane: but i have also said it upsets me to see what was a beautiful channel so terrible now its sad!
Kogg: listening to all of you, they must be, it is such a horrible place
Tanith: I have seen so much of beauty and joy in many different lifestyles, *including* Gor - but it is not the One True Way for everyone.
myria{Kk}: jaane, then find another channel like the S&S you used to like so much
Kree: Kogg I havent been there so I dont know what it is like, but IF I went there I would expecte to be welcomed
myria{Kk}: find another home
swtjaane: i have myria thanks lol
KalunHail: True Tanith
Kree: and I would show the same respect offered to me
kaila waves goodnight
Kogg: so Kree, you are talking all this shit, and you havent even been there????
Tanith: I assure you that not all the people who use "Sir" as a title are wannabes.
tyki{KTs}: sometimes it is just best not to try to learn scuba diving in shark infested waters
swtjaane: Kogg he said he was twice
Kree: all what shit Kogg?
Tanith: Just as not all people who use Master as a title are wannabes.
Kree: I have not said a word about S&S
swtjaane: and as an op you should listen to those who tell you they were treated rudely
|Psyche|: Kogg--there are a good 15+ ppls on #GoranSteel on Asutnet at most times too--not bad for a net of only 300 ppls on the average...they behave very well to newcomers there---perhaps you would care to visit sometime? as my guest?
Kogg: <Kree> Kogg I havent been there so I dont know what it is like, but IF I went there I would expecte to be welcomed
Kree: Yes
swtjaane: now wait!
swtjaane: Kree did you not say you went there with a sub and was treated badly?
myria{Kk} laughs
Tanith: swtjaane - as an op running a Gorean channel by Gorean rules, you think he should listen to suggestions that the slavery there is too harsh?
swtjaane: geez
Kree: What is wrong with the expectation that I would be welcomed there?
myria{Kk}: my Master, weren't we kicked from that channel?
swtjaane: no Tanith
Kogg: I have been there Psyche, and got kicked
myria{Kk} giggles
Kree: NO I said I went to A Gor channel
|Psyche|: Kogg--kicked? What did you do?
swtjaane: i think we are all nuts!
Kree: I did NOT mention S&S
swtjaane: geez Kree!
Kree: geez Kree what?
swtjaane: well how the heck can you blame them for that??!
Kogg: I pinched a slave girl on her cheek (face)
myria{Kk}: Master Kree, myria thinks that if you went in and were respectful of the customs, that you would be very welcome
Kree: U didnt blame S&S for that
|Psyche|: Tanith...there are no set "Gorean" Rules...but, as you say---you dont like it, then one shouldnt go---which is also what she said
Kree: myria that is whatI said
Kree: Kogg likes to fight
Tanith: To be welcomed in S&S, which does have some set Gorean rules, you have to follow them.
swtjaane: oh my i love these discussions
swtjaane: Tanith there are no rules!!
myria{Kk}: Master Kree, myria would recommend you read the web page, and go
KalunHail: Yes jaane, there are.
myria{Kk}: bullshit jaane there are many rules
KalunHail: They are on the website.
Kogg: jaane, I can easily see why you had so many problems there
Tanith: swtjaane: Really? I guess the website doesn't exist then? I have an active imagination. ;)
ldywhispr: myria..what is the web page address...
Maddie: well Kogg is that much different from a slave calling a master sir in silkand steel? if it was against the channel rules you should not have done it
myria{Kk} bites her tongue
swtjaane: Kalun there have been times i have been there and they are not caring about any rules
|Psyche|: not necessarily myrai..there is a certain Gorean channel <that will remain namesless> that times how long it takes to upset newcomers so they leave...never stuck around to see the point spread though...:>
Kree: myria from what I have seen tonoght and the attitude of Kogg and several others, I dont feel thatthere would be a welcome there
swtjaane: i know the web page
swtjaane: its the room at times!
vanea would beg to warm Master Kree's lap if he comes there...grin.
ldywhispr: well i sure was not welcome there
myria{Kk}: ldywhispr, the URL for the tavern is http://www2.1starnet.com/mharris/welcome.html.
Tanith: A kajira who cannot or will not be pleasing is not welcome there, no.
vanea winks at amber..knowing she would have to move fast to beat amber to it..
|Psyche|: Tanith---the only rules are the ones the ops uphold....believe me, the website and the channel have often been very different...that website has been up awhile
vanea gives amber a pinch
Kree: lol
Kogg: Koggs attitude???? I have 10 ppl attacking me and I have an attitude, gee???
KalunHail: jaane, how did you act?
swtjaane: Tanith when someone asks me to serve then kicks and describes breaking my ribs i find it odd
Tanith: Oh, I have seen some variations tolerated as well.
swtjaane: i served
Tanith: swtjaane, I would find that odd as well. Was it an op, or some random schlemiel who wandered in?
Kree: Kogg I have not attacked anyone, yet you attack anything I say.. be defensive to those thatdeserve it
swtjaane: i dont know
|Psyche|: Kogg---welcome to Gor....:>
Kogg: jaane, who did that?
swtjaane: but it has happened often
ldywhispr: thank you myria
swtjaane: often enough i am no longer interested
ldywhispr smiles softly
myria{Kk} smiles
myria{Kk}: and ldywhisper, if myria is there and you need help, just ask myria, she'll help you out
KalunHail: Interesting jaane..., that I have not seen that....,
amber`` ponders being the first first girl of #goreansteel <shiver> before all the switches become ops that is
swtjaane: well perhaps you should look
myria{Kk} laughs at amber
ldywhispr: thank you again myria..there was a starfire and another aniel? who were very kind..it was the "Masters" that were mean and rude
KalunHail: I do.
BigM^: no one will ever uphold a set of rules 100%...as was said it all depends on the mood of the channel at the time.
myria{Kk}: jaane, you say all these horrid things happen, yet you refuse to give names, and you ignore questions.
Kogg: jaane, its funny that I am an op there, and I havent seen it either, except prior to an HNG being booted
Tanith: Um, Masters can be mean and rude if they want to be.
KalunHail: I also understand why you have a problem there.
|Psyche|: depends on the time you go in that channel---early morning Pacific times is sposed to be mellow....
ldywhispr: except for one..He was very kind to me
swtjaane: what ldywhispr is saying is the most common impression most subs get going there and wanting to learn
KalunHail: It is not a learning channel.
Tanith nods.
ldywhispr: Tanith...i went there in peace and said up front i didn't know the ways...
myria{Kk}: it's not a learning channel jaane
myria{Kk} laughs
KalunHail: That is openly atmitted.
Maddie: well perhaps s and s has a trial by fire for new slaves
KalunHail: admitted even...
Kogg: I dont know, seems one might well learn rather quickly there
Kree: whispr the channel I went to I did the same thing
ldywhispr: but i respected the customs as best i knew them
swtjaane: well maybe you should start a learning area of the channel rather than scaring everyone like that!
ldyStone sneaks in again
KalunHail chuckles
Tanith: It's our duty as newcomers to read the website and observe the rules, from what I understand.
KalunHail: True Kogg
Tanith: Which is harder on you as a slave than it was on me as a Free Woman.
myria{Kk}: jaane, you're the teacher, you do it
Kree: It was funny... I was kicked and banned and an op messaged me wanting to know if they could put one of my poems he had read on their website LOL
myria{Kk}: myria learned everything she knows in S&S and at the feet of her Master.
swtjaane: myria you told me not to come back! lol
ldywhispr: yeah..well i did not know of hte web site before i went..was it mentioned in the discussion?
KalunHail: There are plenty of "learning channels"
ldywhispr: LOL Kree
|Psyche|: which one was kind to you, ladywisper...may as well give credit where it is due
KalunHail: Why start another one?
tyki{KTs}: tyki's home is a learning channel on Dalnet
ldywhispr: Master Baccuss
astraea: Belated hello, Maddie. :)
Kogg: and those who enter and let us know you are new, are usually taught and instructed
swtjaane: huggs astraea
ldywhispr: and i did that Kogg
swtjaane: no Kogg not true!! lol
myria{Kk}: yes jaane
myria{Kk}: true
astraea: hey swtjaane
kaila: Kogg, that isn't true!
myria{Kk}: myria was allowed to watch for a long time
kaila shakes her head madly nooooooooo
swtjaane: no they are treated like fair open game and abused and that is true
Kogg: well, jaane, it is obvious why you were kicked
swtjaane: myria you were prolly there long ago
Kogg: I would have done so myself
swtjaane: i was treated at times kindly that is why it saddens me now
myria{Kk}: myria went there first last September
Tanith: Do you think that experienced Goreans are not allowed to have any taverns in which they can relax and not have to worry about newbies, because it's THEIR CHANNEL, and the newbies must conform or go elsewhere?
myria{Kk}: not that long ago
swtjaane: long enough tho
myria{Kk}: and myria wasn't always treated kindly
KalunHail: very obvious
|Psyche|: tyki...youre channel is a great place to learn #Ship-of-Acquisition <unpaid commercial announcement>
Kree: tanith if that is true, they should have the channel as a private secret channel
swtjaane: Tanith i think rude is rude
myria{Kk}: but myria kept learning
Kree: or they should tell people to leave
Kogg: the life of a Gorean slave can be quite harsh
Tanith: Kree, fergeezsake. No. I don't think so.
ldywhispr: Tanith..i own a channel...and no..even on my NOT Gor channel..all are respected
ldywhispr: even Gorians...
Tanith: ldywhisper, it's your channel and you can run it as you like.
KalunHail: Rude....Gorean....rude....Gorean..., Sometimes.., Yep.
Kogg: if she is not pleasing
Tanith: If I wanted, I could have a channel in which you had to name yourself for a tropical fruit and stand on your head or be kicked. Do you disagree?
swtjaane: ok lets suffice it to say s&s is a rude channel lol
ldywhispr: but..Bear invited everyone there to continue....remember?
myria{Kk} laughs
ldywhispr: so i went
KalunHail: Yep, It'a a Gorean channel.
Kree: Tanith if it is a place thatthey wish to be private, they should make it private....if it is public they should respect those that enter and are respectful
ldywhispr: i do not disagree
kaila: the invitation was made....*nodd nodd*
Tanith: If people agreed with me that it was fun to name themselves for tropical fruits and engage in head standing, they could join me there and it would be a popular channel. If not, they would not have to join me there.
kaila: ldywhispr, was Bear- there?
ldywhispr: yes kaila
Tanith: Do you think that my tropica fruit head standing channel has to be private?
Kogg: and maybe we should just kiss everybody's ass when they come in and ask them how they want us to be today
KalunHail: Wrong Kree. Very wrong.
swtjaane: Tanith no one asks you there to be tropical fruit they just kick
BigM^: most of the gorean channels have info to help...eg [STRICK GOR]....NKZ.....ect...
Kree: he pint is IF one doent KNOW that people want it to be thatway they should say so
swtjaane: most help yes
ldywhispr: and He told me tonight was not a good night to come as they were not happy with the way they were treated..i believe is how he put it
Tanith: swtjaane, they expect you to read the site and follow the rules, or get kicked.
myria{Kk}: jaane, mryia's rarely seen a slave get kicked on their first visit without being told where the website is
ldywhispr: that was after they made fun of me
|Psyche|: yup Kree--except it wouldnt be as much fun, messing with the newbies
Kogg: we damn sure say so at the S&S
swtjaane: Tanith i know the fn rules what i am saying is it depends on what the mood is and it is usually abusive
myria{Kk}: and when myria's seen a slave get kicked without being told where the website is, they usually are troublemakers
kaila: that's too bad ldywhispr...since you were specifically invited!
Kogg: and jaane, in you case, it is clear why the mood arises
Tanith shrugs. I'm not Gorean, and I'm not getting anywhere trying to be reasonable....it ain't cool to label somebody else's kink as abuse, just don't consent to play with them.
ldywhispr: yes it is..and i was very respectful to them..
swtjaane: Kogg this is free speaking right now you know i dont speak this way in any Gor channel
Tanith heads off to S&S to some of their horrible, awful, abusive treatment. ;)
|Psyche| thwaps the screen.....the dang thing better open up soon
kaila: Do Gor's have free speaking time?
myria{Kk} laughs
Tanith waves cheerily to all.
KalunHail: Do we jaane?
myria{Kk}: jaane, is Gor role play for you?
Kogg: jaane, you are crying the poor me over and over
KalunHail: Do we truly know?
swtjaane: yes thta is what we are doing!
Kree: noite Tanith
swtjaane: rofl Kalun
myria{Kk} laughs
swtjaane: no Kogg
myria{Kk}: mryia doesn't role play
myria{Kk}: myria is Master's slave
Kree: ye vanea
Kree: I have some older work there
swtjaane: i am not Gor all the time
myria{Kk}: myria doesn't log off and become someone else
swtjaane: but i am when in Gor
myria{Kk} laughs
KalunHail: That is plain to see jaane
myria{Kk}: that's why you get kicked
swtjaane: myria you dont work?
myria{Kk}: you are a roleplayer
BigM^: oh please
swtjaane: you dont flush your toilet?
myria{Kk}: yes jaane, myria does work
myria{Kk} grins at her Master
myria{Kk} laughs
swtjaane: then your not gor all the time remember your a slave?
myria{Kk}: myria wears her Masters collar all the time
tyki{KTs}: why would a slave not flush her toilet?
kaila: I did ask that earlier...how gor fits into worklife, and it wasnt ever answered.
myria{Kk}: not just when she logs on
swtjaane: we dont have toilets on gor tyki!
swtjaane: myria i know what you mean
|Psyche|: um...ldywisper..i asked Gor why he left here...he told me because the Ops here lied and he wasnt allowed to answer the questions in the first part...I saw none of that...
|Psyche|: I asked Bear even..in too many message windows now...
swtjaane: but for those who are uncollared its different
ldywhispr smiles
TheKttN: what first part? i am still confused
Kogg: please excuse myria, she is not real smart, since she doesnt even have her 2nd masters dgree from MIT yet
myria{Kk} smiles at her Master
Kogg: poor girl
swtjaane: Kogg that is silly
KalunHail laughs
tyki{KTs}: tyki works fulltime...and is quite good at what she does...and Master encourages her to excel at her work...
kaila: does the slave make her own work decisions, or does she consult with a Master for a work decision? Does the slave accept a promotion or is that the Master's decision? Does she ask for a raise outright or just wait to see if she gets one?
myria{Kk}: no jaane, it's the truth
ldywhispr: well..i believe we ops...wanted him to answer questions Psyche
Kogg laughs
tyki{KTs}: encouraging her when she is frustrated with things in the office
myria{Kk} laughs
|Psyche|: um ldywisper....they made fun of you while the forum was still closed and moderated?
myria{Kk}: my Master
myria{Kk}: myria will let you handle that question
myria{Kk} grins
ldywhispr: no...when i went to their channel afterwards..at their invitation
swtjaane: i was hitting back on the interpretation thing and we went off the Gor discussion before into a discussion bout s&s and they are different subjects and myria your great hugg
Kogg: myria knows me and act in accordance with my rules, and she will call me for guidance when things come up
kaila: tyki: how far do you go with a social life in regards to work? Is it fine for you to choose who you go to lunch with for example, or is permission required?
swtjaane: but see Kogg?? t here is no planet we were beamed up to!
tyki{KTs}: tyki can go to lunch with who she chooses...
swtjaane: its a philosophy!
kaila: tyki: would you actively seek a raise? Or would you sit back and wait to see if you are worthy of one?
Kogg: damn, I think you actually got it jaane, that is what we have been saying all night
swtjaane: rofl!
ldywhispr: oh well..i am going afk...KttN, i am putting Ron on the puter ..but he is not going to be talking in here..do you want me to deop myself?
tyki{KTs}: and when tyki has been on the road...though she would have preferred to spend her evenings in her hotel room on-line with Master...he has encouraged her to go to lunch with those she is travelling on business with to network for advancement
|Psyche|: myria....enough
swtjaane: and as far as s&s i miss the old channel was different! was more well made more sense and that is not a Gor issue its the running of it
Kogg: |Psyche|, I decide when it is enough from myria
tyki{KTs}: Master seeks for tyki to go as far as she can go...to grow in her knowledge and in her career...
kaila: so, tyki...you make all your own decisions regarding your career?
tyki{KTs}: tyki sometimes seeks counsel from her Master...but more often from her hubby since he is more familiar with where tyki has been...
swtjaane: kaila member what i said earlier? so hard to explain but its when your heart beats as one she is not a zombie she beats in tune with him <geez how do you explain this?>
juielle wonders if a 2x4 methods works
KalunHail: ......What a shame...
swtjaane: oh geez juielle you mean someone hitting us with 2by 4's ack!
juielle: hey it helps
sassysub: woops....hey :)
kaila: It's just the specific questions I'm trying to understand. What the lines are...the essences of being a slave, yes, I do understand. It's the real living it I am curious about.
Kogg: oh my, all this abuse, I may need to leave
juielle: gets their attention for the real thing
juielle giggles
Kogg chuckles
swtjaane: rofl Kogg
juielle waves to Master Kogg
KalunHail laughs
juielle: long time no see
myria{Kk}: well, perhaps myria's a little bolder on the computer...
:o)
swtjaane: ok myria i own a catering business and a marketing co if i walked into a negotiation and referred to them as Masters i would loose everything!
myria{Kk} laughs
swtjaane: so i cant operate that way all the time
swtjaane: i also train dogs
swtjaane: so it does not work there
|Psyche|: I was bounced out of the chanel then back in...apparently, sweetjane...weirdest thing I've seen--didnt rejoin, was just here one min--gone then back
|Psyche|: myria..you called sweetjane a roleplayer....
amber`` smiles at swtjaane..
myria{Kk}: Mistress, that's because myria doesn't switch nicks and change personalities between places she visits
Kree: LOL myria
swtjaane: myria i was given this name on Compuserve some years ago
tyki{KTs}: may tyki be excused...she needs to get some sleep before she goes to two puter seminars tomorrow
swtjaane: then i was named by a master ayla
KalunHail: Well, I do believe I have had enough fun for one evening. I wish you well Goreans. Bye others.
Kogg: Be well Kalun
Maddie: be well KalunHail, travel safe
swtjaane: then when his channel was lost i was renamed jarrra but my submission friends and vanilla ones know me as jaane
myria{Kk}: myria's not a slouch, jaane, myria's got a bachelors in acoustic engineering, a Master's in Mechanical Engineering, and is working on a second Masters' degree
swtjaane: i did not think you were
kaila giggles because she isnt wished well just because she is one of the "others"
Kree: jaaane I am known as Kree because no one else would want this name LOL
vanea wishes you well Master KalunHail
myria{Kk}: jaane, mryia was known as theena and all her friends just had to get to know her as theena
swtjaane: i was referring to saying you live it all the time you cannot go into business meetings in 3rd person
myria{Kk}: erm...myria
BigM^: others kalia?
myria{Kk}: actually
myria{Kk} laughs
myria{Kk}: myria's done that
myria{Kk} giggles
swtjaane: you nut!
kaila: <KalunHail> Well, I do believe I have had enough fun for one evening. I wish you well Goreans. Bye others.
amber``: please may amber have permission to leave?
swtjaane: i would loose the sale!
kaila laughs
Maddie: well myria that might undermine some of your professionalism
myria{Kk} laugsh
astraea: swtjaane, just from what I've seen her in this last little while, no one has suggested that they would do that, or be expected to do that.
Kogg: go amber
swtjaane: my kids need to eat
Maddie: i would look poorly upon a professional that spoke in the third person
Kree: Maddie are you out of school yet?
tyki{KTs} giggles and can't count the number of business e-mails she has signed as tyki...then caught herself and put in her RL name
amber``: Thank You Master Kogg.. amber wishes You well, Master :)
Maddie: almost Kree
amber``: Night all :)
Kree: YAY!
Maddie: 6 more weeks and counting
Maddie: then the real hell begins
swtjaane: it does happen tyki
Kree: are you coming to Florida to celebrate? LOL LOL
swtjaane: for instance i wrote a business letter and twice typed lol
tyki{KTs}: remembering not to speak in third person in the office makes tyki think about what she is talking about
Maddie: well i can't really celebrate until after july
myria{Kk}: irc seeps in
Kree: ohhhhhhhh ok
Kree: LOL
|Psyche|: ...and if one kajira serving "paga" online is a roleplayer...hmmmm...perhaps all are
|Psyche|: go tyki...be well
Maddie: i am taking the ny and either mass or nj bar
swtjaane: what Maddie??
Kree: cool
|Psyche|: myria....I am Schiavona, and Imari as well as this nick---depends on the channel as Auustnet only allows one channel registered per nick.....
Kree: iwould think the NY would be a great accomplishment
|Psyche|: be well amber
myria{Kk}: Mistress Psyche, myria remembers you by other nicks too
swtjaane: Psyche i once went into a dinner and asked for paga does that count?
kaila waves goodnight and wishes *everyone* well...even the Goreans. *wink grin*
tyki{KTs}: thank you and tyki wishes you all a good evening and thank you for the discussion
Maddie: me too, but i can take a second bar so i want to try
myria{Kk}: evenstar and ummmmm
vanea wishes you well kaila
myria{Kk}: soemthing else
Kree: good idea
|Psyche|: myria....do I know you as another nick?
BigM^: so what myria is it gorean law that you cannot change nicks?
Kree: well all good night
myria{Kk}: Mistress Psyche, myria was known as theena before a girls Master changed her nick
Maddie: nite Kree
Maddie: nice seeing you
astraea: Good night, Kree Sir
Kree: nite maddie good to see ya
swtjaane: BigM when i was collared i did not change
Kree: nite astra
Kogg: myria cannot change her nick unless I tell her to do so
vanea smiles at Master Kree...wishing him a good night..and thanking him for the discussion tonight
swtjaane: smiles finally at Kogg lol
Maddie: me too, i have to get up early, nite all
Kogg: which I wont
BigM^: hey i don't care if people change thier nicks...its irc...its was meant to be interesting....not a battle ground for egos
myria{Kk} smiles at her Master
myria{Kk} laughs
swtjaane: BigM to a gorean slave her nick is her collar she never changes it
Kogg: My ego is fine
swtjaane: when collared i was always ayla
myria{Kk}: no, the {Kk} is myria's collar
myria{Kk}: myria's nick, is myria and that pleases Master
|Psyche|: oh gads swtjane....LOL
swtjaane: but your nick is part of this also myria as is your soul no?
|Psyche|: ya missed vanea
myria{Kk} laughs
vanea smiles..
swtjaane: was like that for me
swtjaane: he named me and i kept it
myria{Kk}: myria could be named dogpoop if it pleases Master
|Psyche|: um....sweetjane..on asutnet you need a scorecard to keep up with all the slave name changes..I will greet a slave in my channel nad then they will say something about a discussion weeks before ---then I realize they are someone I know :>
myria{Kk}: it doesn't change who a girl is inside
swtjaane: and you would keep it that is what i meant
myria{Kk}: and myria would wear that nick to every net she visited
swtjaane: i only have 2 psyche this from years ago for vanilla and the submission channels i go to and jarrra unless a Master was to change it
swtjaane: yes myria i did the same
myria{Kk}: so, are you jarra or swtjaane?
swtjaane: i am swtjaane and jarrra when on Gor
myria{Kk}: myria is myria is myria
swtjaane: swtjaane is not especially liked on Gor
swtjaane: that nick
vanea buys nothing with a monogram on it..
myria{Kk} laughs
swtjaane: jarrra means one who wishes to be slave or servant
myria{Kk}: that's right vanea
|Psyche|: LOL vanea!
vanea winks at myria
BigM^: so if my slave was named chic{BM} and she went to a chat channel as <barb> should i have her beaten...no....sorry to upset you but i feel its o.k. if she does....the nick i gave her on gor is the one i want to see ON GOR...there are alot of other places don't like BD/sm or Goreans.
|Psyche|: now dont tell me there are velcro colars on Gor? LOL
myria{Kk} reaches up an tugs on the collar around her neck
swtjaane: BigM when collared on Gor as ayla i was always always ayla in all channels!
swtjaane: i am not collared now
myria{Kk}: myria's is not, but that is between a girls' Master and her
sassysub waves good night...thanks for coming :o)
TheKttN: night:)
myria{Kk}: Mistress Psyche, do the true Goreans wear velcro collars? myria thinks not
Kogg: myria actually wears my collar, a real one, not irc
Kogg: I had it made and latched it on her throat myself
swtjaane: myria and Kogg do you live together?
Kogg: no
BigM^: hey swtjaane i AM saying your nick is whatever you choose it to be...if your master gave you the nick <do-me> it should matter not to me...aslong as you and HE are happy hey then so be it
Kogg: but we do get together as often as possible
swtjaane: yes i think we all said that BigM lol
swtjaane: we are talking ruond in circles tonight for some reason
Kogg looks at the next circled dates on his calendar
Kogg: time to go, I wish you all well, and the discussions were really pretty good once we got over the potshots
TheKttN: thanks Kogg:)
Kogg: come myria
ldywhispr: well now we could have a discussion where i could keep up even
ldywhispr laughs
ldyStone: hahahahha
TheKttN: actually this one has been kinda good
Kogg: looks like S&S when I'm in a bad mood
Psy^: they will all be back prolly--then you would get ppls hopping into the middle of a discussion
ldyStone: i have a headache from reading so much :)
Ended Log Here After Five Hours.