Author of "A Different Loving" Speaks on #MDOM the Undernet
Speaker: Gloria Brame
January 1998

A Different Loving - Web Site

*note: We want to thank Cailin and Raven for bringing this discussion to all of us and allowing us to post it on this site. In the future we hope to inform you of other discussions held on #MDOM.

<Raven^SB^> Good evening Ladies and Gentlmen and welcome to #MDOM

<Raven^SB^> tonight we are very honored and pleased to introduce Gloria Brame

<Raven^SB^> The Co-Author of Different Loving

<Raven^SB^> Gloria G Brame is a poet, writer, editor, and lay therapist. She is a former English professor and Wall Street financial analyst. Her Husband, William D. Brame, is a professional Archaeologist, novelist, and freelance writer. Jon Jacobs has a background in photojournalism, and is a freelance writer and editor.

<Raven^SB^> To quote from ~

<Raven^SB^> "Praised by sexologists, reviewers, and readers alike as "the Bible of D&S," DIFFERENT LOVING: The World of Sexual Dominance and Submission was written to demystify the widely misunderstand sexuality known broadly as sadomasochism (also as D&S and BDSM).

<Raven^SB^> First published in 1993, DL sold out its first hard-cover printing in 10 months and sold out a second run eight months later. Re-released in 1996 and now in its fifth printing in the US, DL raised immediate controversy in publishing circles as the first and only book from a major American publisher to take a candid and sympathetic, non-clinical view of real sadomasochistic practices."

<Raven^SB^> And with this we are opening the floor to Gloria Brame. Gloria will speak of the book and a bit of herself, she will discuss her upcoming projects

<GGB> Thanks, Raven, for the introduction.

<Raven^SB^> we will then take your questions, one by one. Anyone that has a question, after Gloria is finished, should direct it to me, we will give you voice to ask your question .

<GGB> Okay, first I would like to thank all you wonderful people for coming out to this chat tonight! It's a huge crowd!

<GGB> I'm going to start off by talking for a bit about DIFFERENT LOVING, just some general background on it and why we wrote it, and then I'll open the floor to any questions you may have about the book. Once the questions seem to be dying down, I'll move on to talk about 2 new SM books I've recently signed contracts a new on-line BDSM project I'm doing. Between each of those I'll also take questions. Also, feel free to ask me personal questions.

<GGB> If they're too personal, I'll just look offended. :-)

<GGB> So, to begin. I first came up with the idea to write DifLove in about 1990...I guess, like most BDSMers, early on, I felt a hunger for some serious information on our sexuality. When I first came out, in '86, there was really nothing terribly helpful out there.

<GGB> Now, in 1987, I founded a big BDSM support/education group on-line, on Compuserve. It exceeded our wildest expectations--the audience was about 100 times what Compuserve ever imagined.

<GGB> In the years I led that group, I guess I began doing some of what ultimately became the goal of Different Loving: basically, to make people feel comfortable with their unusual fetishes & fantasies, and to understand that our kind of sex has a very human face, and is not that one-dimensional stereotype you find in sleazy porn or see portrayed in sensational news stories about serial killers.

<GGB> Will, Jon and I set out to write a book that a mainstream person could pick up and identify with. We felt the best way to do it would be by collecting as many interviews and anecdotes from as wide a range of BDSMers as possible, and to let THEM tell their stories. Our job, then, would be to put their voices into a journalistic context which would give the reader a complete picture of who does this kind of stuff and why and, perhaps most importantly, to show that SMers aren't caricatures, but regular human beings, with values and morals and intimate relationships.

<GGB> (And very lively libidos! <g>)

<GGB> We split the work up three ways: Will was our historical and anthropological researcher, he did the background on all the historical stuff you see in the book (like the history of tattooing, or the history of whipping going back centuries); he was also our main contact person to the BDSM organizations we solicited (we sent 'em all letters) for volunteers we could interview.

<GGB> Jon was in charge of scheduling and conducting interviews, and getting them transcribed. And I was the writer and coordinator who pulled all the efforts together (What else can you expect from a dominatrix?)

<GGB> So these are the basic background points. I think I'll open the floor to questions now about the book. Feel free to ask about any aspects of it!

<Raven^SB^> anyone with questions please send me your questions

<Raven^SB^> Gloria, at what age did you discover your need?

<Raven^SB^> let me rephrase that, what sparked your curiosity into the lifestyle?

<GGB> Hm. I think I always knew I was sexually strange. I can remember having BDSM type fantasies even when I was 5 or so.

<GGB> (The first time I saw Spartacus, at age 5, it was a life-transforming experience!

<GGB> All those loin cloths! Those sweaty half-naked bodies in chains!

<GGB> Not to mention those crosses! <g>)

<GGB> But I didn't "come out" until I was almost 30.

<miel{Tw}> hard was it to find BDSMer's for your interviews?

<GGB> Actually, not very hard. I first solicited interviewees on the SM board on Compuserve, and got a couple of dozen there. I also put out word in the SM Scene in NYC (where I lived at the time), and friends told friends. Someone cross-posted my Compuserve notice on UseNet, and we got more people. Finally, we did presentations to some BDSM groups in NY and in Atlanta (where I live now), and we sent flyers asking for volunteers to about 200 organizations.

<GGB> By the end, we had a lot more volunteers than we could use.

<GGB> Next question?

* miel{Tw} smiles. Thank you Gloria...sounds like you were swamped then.

<eris{V-M}> i would like to know if you distinguish, other then degree, between D/s and S/M since i find that my interest in submission and my need for pain can be dealt with separately if i so chose to work it out that way. (which i don't ;>)

<GGB> Personally, I use the terms interchangeably.

<GGB> I identify as a sadomasochist, myself, but I see the power exchange as the foundation of my interest in SM, and to me power exchange=dominance and submission.

<GGB> I have known people who've felt the need to draw a sharp line between the two.

<GGB> Are there any more questions?

<rtmis`IK> i understand there are two versiions of your book, with subtle title differences, are there substantive changes in the text of them and what are they

<rtmis`IK> and thank you for coming tonight

<GGB> I feel honored to be here!

<GGB> We did change the title (by dropping "an exploration of" from the subtitle. The text itself in the

<GGB> Whoops! I'm getting line noise!

<GGB> If I get cut off, I'll be back!

<GGB> To continue, though...we did try to correct a few mistakes in the tradepaper and also to update the section on cyberspace a bit... but otherwise the editions are virtually identical.

<GGB> We may, however, do a new edition in the next couple of yrs.

<rtmis`IK> did dropping the theme of exploration have significance to you and which was the earlier work


<rtmis`IK> thank you for honoring out gift publically and for honoring us privately here

<GGB> The earlier work's subtitle was "An Exploration of the World of Sexual Dominance & Submission." I'd never been happy with that--seemed so bulky.

<GGB> Any other questions?

<wench^S02> Gloria, how difficult was it to find a publisher for the book. Did you have one before you begain writing it?

<GGB> Wench, we submitted a book proposal, consisting of an overview, a detailed table of contents, and a sample chapter (45 pages in all) to 20 different publishers. Simultaneously. Then we waited while rejection slip after rejection slip came in. After 2-3 months, we were about to give up hope. Then an editor at Random House called, said he wasn't really interested but would meet me for 15 minutes just to hear me out.

<GGB> That was the editor who bought the book!

<GGB> Done.

<GGB> (I can be HIGHLY persuasive. <g>)

<DCs^kitN> two quick questions....i'm curious what surprised you most as you researched Different Loving and second, the working title of The world of Sexual Dominance and Submission - is it necessary to use the word Sexual? couldn't it just be the world of Domination and submission?

<GGB> Ummm...I think we wanted to get the word SEX in the title. :-)

<GGB> (Also, to distinguish it from a study of aggression.)

<GGB> There were so MANY surprises when working on DifLove...the top ones would be: discovering how many variations existed that I didn't even know about (by then, I thought I was pretty well-informed!). Discovering the whole spiritual/religious SM movement that was first forming out of San Francisco.

<GGB> And, the top surprise--realizing that SM/D&S or whatever you want to call it is infinitely more common than most people would ever acknowledge.

<Angel`Fox> Gloria,..Have You always been a Domme or have You been a sub/slave at one point? and do You preffer one to the other?

<GGB> Now to answer the personal question.

<GGB> I consider myself a switch, technically, because I have fantasies on both the dom and sub side. Practically speaking, however, about 99% of my experience is as a domme, and that's where my comfort level seems to be. As a sub, I'd have to say that I am, at best, a "do me" sub, with zero interest in service.

<GGB> As a domme, I like EVERYTHING. I love being in control.

<Angel`Fox> Thank You :o)

<Angel`Fox> Yes I understand that :o)

<GGB> Done.

<poenkitn> You had said that you would be expanding the section on Cyberspace, will you be covering the different aspects and cyber Domination?

<GGB> I haven't decided yet, but certainly cyberSM is its own phenomenon now!

<GGB> It will partly depend on how much the publisher lets me add to what is already a very thick book. (I'd also like to add more to a few sections, like fetishes and ageplay) which now seem thin.

<GGB> Done.

* poenkitn nod seems to go straight to the mental aspects

<MsrMure`> I've been interested in BDSM all my life, and have been actively researching, reading and learning since about 1985 (Lucky owner of a 1st edition DL!). One thing I've noticed that seldom seems to be addressed is the difference between those of us who do this as an integral part of our lifestyle and those who do it as a "bedroom variation" (for lack of a better descriptor).

<MsrMure`> It seems to me that while SS&C is an important part of any BDSM and therefore needs to be first and formost for everyone.

<MsrMure`> Most of the current information available is for people who are in the second group rather than the first. Those who do wish to intigrate BDSM into their entire life have very little in terms of resources - an so we subsequently often end up blundering our way through. What are your feelings about this and do you have any plans to express them in any future publication?

<GGB> Why, thank you, MsrMure, for giving me the PERFECT segue into one of my future projects. :-) How consensual of you!

<GGB> Yes, I agree there has been a growing emphasis on the "play" aspect of SM. And I am going to be publishing a new book on BDSM, which will have MUCH more to say about the practical realities of life as a BDSMer. I just signed a contract with Simon & Schuster for a new book called CONSENTING ADULTS: A Commonsense Guide to Kinky Sex.

<GGB> (Again, I'm very happy to say it'll be a big mainstream publisher who can reach big audiences!)

<GGB> In the new book, I will answer questions from people who've read DL or who have stumbled upon the DL website.

<GGB> Questions will range from the VERY basic (like "am I normal?" and "what is kinky?" to issues such as how to balance children and a BDSM relationship, how to meet people, how love and intimacy can work in a solid D&S relationship, and lots of other issues that couples need to know.

<GGB> Done.

<GGB> If there are no more questions about DL, I'll talk a little more about Consenting Adults. Cailin?

<Cailin> sure Gloria... we have lots of questions...but we can do them after you talk :)

<GGB> Okay! I'll stick around so folks can get their questions answered.

<GGB> To continue with Consenting Adults: it'll be a MUCH more personal book this time. I'll be writing it alone, and from my own point of view, and I hope to make it fun to read.

<GGB> I'll talk about my own experiences and opinions about what we do, and also tackle the questions that come up most often from people--everyone from the frightened novice who has the desire but doesn't know where to begin; to the experienced lifestyler who may come across serious relationship issues with their partner.

<GGB> I also plan to devote a chapter each to the four basic categories of Scene people: femdoms, femsubs, maledoms, and malesubs...talking about the challenges each group faces, and with advice and information which I hope will be helpful.

<GGB> Since I just sold the book a few weeks ago (also based on a proposal, not a complete book), it probably won't hit stores for at least another 18 months. I will probably begin posting excerpts around my website, though, before TOO long.

<GGB> However, I will have another SM book out next fall: it will be a collection of my (hardcore) femdomme erotica. Daedalus Publishing is putting it out. It'll be called DOMINA.

<GGB> I already have some stories from the collection on my website (in the erotica library), so anyone who's curious about it can go read some of the fiction in advance. :-)

<GGB> I'll stop here for now, and take more questions about these books or DL (or anything else <g>). But before the chat ends, I will announce *one more* SM project. :-)

<Harvey^^> Gloria, how does the longevity of a "typical" (if that term can even be used) D/s relationship compare to other alternative lifestyles, or even conventional lifestyles?

<GGB> Well, Harvey, I'm just not sure what's "typical" anymore.

<GGB> Years ago, the ideal was that you make a commitment to your Master or Mistress and you stay with them long-term. Play parties were not as popular as th ey are now. (Or if they were, I wasn't invited. <g>)

<GGB> Now it seems like there is a whole lot of play partying going on, and with the play (and also the advent of cyber), it often seems to me that people make permanent commitments that last about 3 weeks.

<GGB> Sorry to sound jaded about it, but I am, a bit. :-)

<GGB> Done.

<kitten^G> Gloria...first I would like to thank you for joining us...second...I am curious as to whether you began this journey as a submissive and then explored your Domme side...or vice did you progress in your journey?

<GGB> Done.

<GGB> The real start of my journey was in cyber, when I logged onto an SM BBS in 1986. I thought at the time I would be submissive. But none of the dominants who approached me turned me on. In fact, a few were downright hopeless. I believe we call them CHUDWAH's now. :-)

<GGB> One got me so cranky, I told him that I could do a better job of it even though I had zero experience. He challenged me to try.

<GGB> (This was about a week into my having joined the board!)

<GGB> So I tried. And that, my dear, was that. :-)

<GGB> Done.

<Kree> We have so a number of people in line for questions... in the interest of moving along we will need to stop the waiting list where it is now...thanks for all the questions

<EZRiser> Simple Question .. Do you have an opinion on the difference between being a submissive or that of a masochist

<GGB> Could you clarify that?

<GGB> Well, I guess I can just launch into what I *think* you mean. :-)

<EZRiser> do you think that there is a difference .. and .. if so .. to what extent . and where is the borderline drawn

<GGB> I think some people are more submissive (eager to serve) than masochistic (turned on by pain). I know there are a lot of masochists out there who do not feel deeply submissive, but who mainly need the pain to feel satisfied.

<GGB> I don't believe there are ever fixed borders when it comes to sexuality. I think these things are considerably more fluid. I am always a bit wary when people insist that they are only one thing and never another. The harder they insist, the warier I am.

<GGB> Done.

<sublettex> Thanks for this opportunity ;) Im wondering what you're thoughts are on the growing popularity of D/s themes in the media and elsewhere (ie: music videos, movies, commercials..and the latest a D/s restaurant in NYC) do you think there's a danger in bdsm being "Disney-fied" or mainstream?

<GGB> I think that the reason you are seeing this explosion in the exploitation of D&S themes to sell product (whether it's a record, movie, book, or clothes) is because BDSM *is* mainstream--in other words, I think that marketers have just wised up to the fact that A LOT OF PEOPLE out there --people who'd never consider themselves kinky--are immediately titillated and fascinated by kinky images.

<GGB> I don't think Madison Avenue is imposing those things on us;

<GGB> I think they're now taking advantage of peoples' natural propensity to be curious about and even aroused by kinky sex. Done.

<sublettex> but here's what im thinking, i agree about Madison Ave not being imposing, but the thought of buying in the mall of america isnt exactly what i'd call a lateral move

<GGB> But why not?

<GGB> Frankly, I doubt it'll happen because there is just too much shame and guilt in our society over any kind of sex for such adult stores to pop up in malles.

<GGB> On the other hand, it would be so convenient if Wilson's also carried whips--especially at those discount prices. :-) Done.

<sereena> Were you married already when you discovered your need for D/s? How did you "negotiate" things with your spouse or future spouse? what did you find needed to be said beforehand, and how much of it was necccessary/useful in the longrun?

<GGB> I was married to my EX-husband when I realized I was a sadomasochist. I left him. :-) (Not JUST because of the SM, but it certainly was a big part of my personal awakening.)

<GGB> By the time I met Will (2 yrs. later), I was HEAVILY involved in the Scene. By then, I'd already decided I wouldn't date any men who were vanilla. There was no point. I knew I could never have a really successful vanilla relationship. Been there, done that.

<GGB> Done.

<OneFoot> GGB Do have a list of stores or places where your book is available... Especially interested in someplace where I can order via web or mail?

<GGB> You can purchase the book at almost any on-line bookstore.

<GGB> Amazon Books ( carries it. sells it at a huge discount (40%, I think).

<GGB> Done.

<GGB> (Oh! And you can order it through my site, too.)

<Raven^SB^> Gloria sorry for the interuption but many asked for your url can you announce the si te address?

<GGB> Happily! The Different Loving homepage is:


<GGB> I run the largest kinky links catalogue on the Internet (over 1400 links), an erotica library, an SM art gallery (original photos & paintings), and hundreds more pages--including a site by Jon Jacobs and his lifestyle partner, Polly, called "Submissive Women Speak," a truly fabulous resource for serious lifestylers.

<GGB> The entire site is completely free. No AdultCheck either.

<GGB> Done.

<claudia{A> was there anything you found while researching your book that made a significant change in your thinking or attitude? Were there any common elements in your respondents (aside from the obvious <g>) that surprised you? Thank you. :)

<GGB> I'm assuming you mean if writing the book changed any of my personal attitudes? If so, then, yes, a number of things changed. First off, while I do like to consider myself one of the most polymorphously perverse people who ever walked the face of the earth (how modest of me!) there were still a lot of scenes I wrote about in DL which I did not quite understand myself--like, what exactly was the turn-on of wearing a tight corset or receiving a whipping?

<GGB> Since my job was to explain to the reader WHY these things were enjoyable, I had to really open up my mind. And, ultimately, I came away from it able to eroticize stuff I hadn't even found that sexy before writing it!

<GGB> What surprised and delighted all of the co-authors...was how incredibly honest people were in their interviews. A lot of very brave people! Who shared deeply intimate experiences with us, because they believed in what we were doing.

<GGB> That was an amazing experience. Done.

<MastrMars> "As a writer what aspects of your work do you see being "Misunderstood" by people outside the Lifestyle?? & on a personal note, I have noticed from my talks with Domme, that if they do swtich , they do seem to go for the SM (masochist) side rather than the D/s (submission/serving) side :)

<GGB> I think that the single biggest problem, really, is simply people who read the book with a closed mind--they've got their opinions and no amount of logic or reason will sway them from their strongly-held beliefs that, for example, SM is sick or a sadomasochist must be crazy.

<GGB> Needless to say, as someone known for writing THAT book, when I go out in mainstream circles, lots of people already have firm, preconceived notions about what I must be like.

<GGB> And they aren't always very flattering. :-)

<GGB> Done.

<Cailin> <brandypet> Is is considered bad fourm to submit to more than one publisher at a time?

<GGB> It depends on what you're submitting, but if it's only at the proposal stage, you should DEFINITELY submit to more than one publisher at a time.

<GGB> That's what agents do. As I said, we sent out proposal to 20 places. On this last book, my agent sent it to a select handful and let them fight over it. Done.

<GGB> (BTW, brandypet, you've really never seen nonconsensual SM until you've started dealing with publishers.) :)

<Cailin> <summerain> I wonder about children and Ds... as we know children absorb a lot that we think they are missing. To me the concept of a 24/7 Master/slave relationship is very attractive... BUT I don't want my kids to grow up assuming that women are the weaker sex and that men should rule the roost... how do you deal with that sort of issue?

<GGB> Cailin, I don't have children, so I can't speak from personal experience.

<GGB> My general feeling, though, is that it's up to each couple to decide what their own comfort level is in terms of letting their children know about their sex lives. Also, you know your own kids better than anyone, and you know at what ages they are likely to be able to understand your relationship without it necessarily causing them emotional upset.

<Cailin> Summerain is wondering how people you know deal with it

<GGB> I think, frankly, that children with a strong sense of self-esteem, who respect both parents, and see them as good models, can and will accept that their parents have an unconventional relationship. Certainly lesbians have been able to raise straight daughters with good attitudes towards men.

<GGB> Why shouldn't a femsub, then, be able to raise kids who can distinguish between social equality and the private erotic relationship between their parents? Done.

<Cailin> Thanks Gloria :)

<Cailin> Kree would like to speak for a moment

<Kree> For those hat havent been to the Different Loving site, you need to go there.... the kink links are like going to the Smithsonian...spend the day there

<GGB> Thanks, Kree!

<Kree> Gloria would you show that site again


<Kree> We would like to thank Gloria for coming and TheKttN from efnet for allowing #submission_discuss to advertise this event

<GGB> And our slogan..."Where perversion is never a dirty word." :)

<tchrspet> Was there something else you wanted to share with us Gloria?

<GGB> Thanks, tchrspet, yes! I wanted to announce that I will be venturing into another on-line project beginning right after the New Year.

<GGB> Time-Warner's on-line magazine, THRIVE (on AOL) has invited me to be their resident BDSM expert for a new BDSM area they will be starting up. I'll be doing a regular weekly conference for them, live, plus will work with them to set up a bunch of resources within the magazine of special interest to our community.

<Bison> Gloria, on behalf of all of #Mdom this has been a really wonderful evening and i think i speak for everyone here when I say you are welcome to return anytime

<tchrspet> Gloria a question please..

<GGB> Sure, t, what's the question?

<GGB> I don't think they'll be announcing it until after January 1.

<GGB> But I *will* post complete details about it on my Website as soon as we're ready to go.

<GGB> Done.

<tchrspet> that's great! will be watching out for it

<tchrspet> Thank you

<Cailin> Gloria, we would like to thank you! It was wonderful and we appreciate you taking the time out of your schedule for us

<Cailin> Anything else you would like to add before we let the chaos break out and let everyone talk at will? lol

<Cailin> btw everyone... we will be posting this log to MDom, and

<GGB> Gee, haven't I droned on enough yet? :-)

<Cailin> among other places

<GGB> No, I'm done. let the chaos begin!

<Kree> Cailin people wanting logs just need to check back here in the channel in a few days

<Cailin> Well thank you again!

<Cailin> Here goes.... everyone duck <g<

<beccaSJ> or they can contact me for clean copy -- krach

<poenkitn> thank you Gloria

<fawrad> Thank you was a honor to get to hear you speak

<voyageur^> thank you so much:)

<claudia{A> thank you Gloria :)

<softsmile> Gloria...I have Raven on the phone...she sends her apologies AOL is busy and she can't reconnect

<sublettes> thanks for responding to my question, Gloria

<softsmile> She sends her utmost thanks and appreciation for your time

* poenkitn takes her a glass of cyber water and ice

<jupiter10> applauds Gloria for all she has done & continues to do for our community

<DebiJean> Yes, thank you so much Gloria..

<silkysoft> Thank you very much Gloria

<GGB> Please thank Raven for me for the invitation and the adroit guidance! And thanks also to Cailin & all of you who've managed to stick through this long conference!

<GGB> I'm very touched.

<eris{V-M}> Thankyou Gloria :)

<^birdy> Its an honor to hear you speak Gloria...thank you so much

<wench^S02> Thank you Gloria.... thru DifLoving, you helped many of us come to grips with our BDSM selves. :)

<fawrad> i for one love the DL site...i can browse for days...smiles

<tchrspet> Thank you for your time GLoria

<cheekies> may I ask a question of the ppl involved in this?

<Bison> sure cheekies

<GGB> (if only dominatrices could blush, I'd be bright red now)

<tchrspet> ask away

<cheekies> will the log of this discussion be posted on the web anywhere? i missed most of it :/

<LordSaber> fawrad: is truly awesome!!! I am the WebMaster for the Scoeity of Janus as some of you know..and when I first put together links for the web page, the DL site was among the first I put in!! <S>

<Bison> yes cheekies it will be

<tchrspet> yes

<Bison> and

<tchrspet> where else cailin?

<cheekies> thank you both :)

<edri{AF}> Gloria do you ever travel much? I run a local BDSM group here in Ottawa and I would be honoured to have you visit and perhaps if you are willing speak before the group sometime...unfortunately the group has no budget per say so it's often difficult to attract speakers of your calibre

<beccaSJ> and on the MDOM list server for those that are members

<GGB> edri, to tell the truth, I travel as little as possible. I hate flying. And I'm really addicted to my work.

<jupiter10> Gloria did during interviews did you find any regional/geographical differences between peoples attitudes & societies?

* ^birdy thinks her group in colorado has asked too

<GGB> Jupiter, actually, yes! The Pacific Northwest scene is quite different from the one in New York, for example.

<jupiter10> how Gloria? Am in Western Canada

* edri{AF} looks at Angel Fox.gee a mistress who hates to fly.who'd a thought.giggle

<LordSaber> edri: What group????

<DamFrawd> how so GGB..?

* zenflower wonders how the scenes are different

<edri{AF}> LordSaber the ottawa Power Exchange Network..OPEN for short

* Angel`Fox and edri{AF} are in Ottawa ontario Canada,...

<wench^S02> G'nite all....and thank you again, Gloria :)

<LordSaber> edri: Do you have an URL??? I'll include it on the Janus page..

<GGB> There is more of a New Age/pagan/magick angle to BDSM in northern California, for example, than in NYC.

<Angel`Fox> there was nothing here so we started a group,.:o)


<Avian> this is true Gloria...I live in Portland Or and I am Shamanistic 8)

<edri{AF}> needs updating.what can IU say I'm a busy slave<G>

<jupiter10> interesting. I wonder how this differs from say Europe

<GGB> Yes, you hear more about using pain to go on a spiritual journey from West Coaster than East Coasters.

<zenflower> yes how does it differ from the UK for instance????

<GGB> There's also more anonymous SM in the big cities (like NY, SF, Chicago) than, say, here in Atlanta, because the community here is smaller and there aren't many venues where you can just hook up with strangers and start playing (as one can do easily enough in NYC). So, for example, down here most play parties are by invitation and you have to be in the know to be there.

* D`rtagnan looks at tap...........nahhhhhhhhhhh...not in Chicago

* zenflower have you found an inordinant amount of native peoples involved in this lifestyle???

* tapestry shakes her head disbelievingly

<poenkitn> In Florida it is darn neAr non existant it seems

<GGB> Not in Chicago? Okay. Then NY and SF, for sure.

<raven{EZ}> there are groups, bars and clubs in the Tampa area poenkitn

<^birdy> That is the way it is here in Colorado too..very underground but slowly coming out a bit.

<allya> Ms. Brame, thank You for sharing Your life and work with us....

<GGB> When I was starting out, I'd just go hang out at The Vault or Paddles (in NYC), and play to my heart's content.

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